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Iran vs. Israel

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Would Iran and Israel nuking each other benefit Sunni Muslims?

No
9
64%
Yes
3
21%
I don't know
2
14%
 
Total votes: 14

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Paddington Bear
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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby Paddington Bear » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:14 am

I see you’re applying some kind of logic there; alas it’s not a kind I’ve ever come across. :mrgreen:

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby Grant » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:25 am

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Oh! Now this is sweet......

Taqiyya=

http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiy ... -Allah.htm

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:25 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Oh! Now this is sweet......

Taqiyya=

http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiy ... -Allah.htm
Not one of your many Rashad Khalifa sources again!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

"Very few people know that the last messenger from Allah was actually an American citizen. This article is a tribute to one of the most remarkable Muslim reformers of all time. This is the story of Rashad Khalifa (1935-1990), the messenger of the covenant and the founder of Submission, which is a new brand of Islam. This new strain of Islam is still being practiced in Tucson, which is his hometown in Arizona. Muslims deliberately avoid referring to Rashad Khalifa’s name or work for the reasons I shall explain later. However, his experience can be a useful tool in the hands of those who are interested in exposing Islam."

http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/K ... rophet.htm

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby Grant » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:08 pm

Abu Taqiyya,

There is no way you can squirm out of this:

"The word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.


Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart. (See endnotes)


Like many Islamic practices, taqiyya was formed within the context of the culture of Arab tribalism, expansionary warfare, Bedouin raiding and inter-tribal conflict. Taqiyya has been used by Muslims since the 7th century to confuse, confound and divide 'the enemy’. "

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:11 pm

A Sufi source could have fooled a few. But a Rashad Khalifa source? That really wasn't smart.

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby Grant » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:31 pm

Similar source. Please respond, not to the source, but to the direct quotations:

"According to the authoritative Arabic text, Al-Taqiyya Fi Al-Islam: “Taqiyya [deception] is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it. We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream…Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era.”

The primary Quranic verse sanctioning deception with respect to non-Muslims states: “Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.” (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)

Al-Tabari’s (838-923 AD) Tafsir, or Quranic exegeses, is essentially a standard reference in the entire Muslim world. Regarding 3:28, he wrote: “If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harbouring inner animosity for them… Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers – except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them.”

Regarding 3:28, the Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: “Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels'] evil, may protect himself through outward show.”

As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad’s companions. Abu Darda said: “Let us smile to the face of some people while our hearts curse them.” Al-Hassan said: “Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the day of judgment [in perpetuity].”

Other prominent ulema, such as al- Qurtubi , al-Razi, and al-Arabi have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. Muslims can behave like infidels – from bowing down and worshipping idols and crosses to even exposing fellow Muslims’ “weak spots” to the infidel enemy – anything short of actually killing a fellow Muslim."

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby ModerateMuslim » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:02 pm

grant, you're seriously confused. you hatred of islam is blinding you to the facts/reality and has deprived you of any intellectual honesty that you may have had. the muslims - unlike the shia & american pagans - don't practice concealment in matters of creed and methodology; its very much forbidden to them. but when a believer's life is in danger or he's being tortured by a pagan; then the believer can outwardly deny his creed aslong as this isn't from his heart but instead his heart is still at peace with allah swt and his messenger saw. having said that - its more noble of a believer never to deny his creed no matter the situation.

let me ask you a simple and straightforward Q: if your life was in the balance, would you say/do things you truly didn't believe in to save yourself?
Last edited by ModerateMuslim on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby ModerateMuslim » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:10 pm

The Deal With Taqiyyah: What Did Ibn Kathir Really Say?

The Christian missionary had referred to Qur’an 3:28 and relied on his copy of Ibn Kathir’s commentary2 for some “interesting” information of taqiyyah and quoted it (partially) in his speech over Paltalk when we deflected the charge of taqiyyah. What he “failed” to mention was the context in which this commentary was made. The context of the commentary is with regard to Muslims taking the disbelievers as their protectors or political allies.


We therefore reproduce the whole commentary here as follows.

{28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unless you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.}

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers

Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

{And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in anyway}

meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him.

Similarly, Allah said,

{0 you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them}

until,

{And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.} [60:1]

Allah said,
{0 you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?} [4: 144]

and,

{0 you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.} [5:51

Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins,

{And those Who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.} [8:73]

Allah said next,

{unless you indeed fear a danger from them.}

meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda said, “We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.” Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, “The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.” Allah said,

{And Allah warns you against Himself.}

meaning, He warns you against His anger and the severe torment He prepared for those who give their support to His enemies, and those who have enmity with His friends….3


Note the bold sentences in the above quote. If someone is threatening to kill you and is only willing to let you go if you say or do the things he demands, then in such a dire circumstances, a person is permitted to say what needs to be said to save his/her life. That is all there is to it.

Consider the example of the American journalist Jill Carrol who was recently released in Iraq by militants. While still in Iraq, she appeared on television praising the militants who kidnapped her and murdered her translator. Later, once she was released and returned to America, she said that she was demanded to say those types of things, or else her life would have been in danger. Can anyone blame her for doing that and for saying the things she said in Iraq?

Likewise, Ibn Kathir explains that in such a situation, where you are being threatened with violence and you are not strong enough to defend yourself, a person may say certain things so that the aggressor would not harm him/her. Ibn Kathir does not state anywhere that you can just lie “for fun” or whenever you want to.

In the Qur’an we also read (16:106):

“Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith[/b[ but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment.” (Yusuf Ali)

Ibn Kathir has this to say in the abridged commentary:

{except one who was forced while his heart is at peace with the faith}

This is an exception in the case of one who utters statements of disbelief and verbally agrees with the Mushrikin because he is forced to do so by the beatings and abuse to which he is subjected, but his heart refuses to accept what he is saying, and he is, in reality at peace with his faith in Allah and His Messenger (P).

The scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse, as Bil?
did when they were inflicting all sorts of torture on him. even placing a huge rock on his chest in the intense heat and telling him to admit others as partners with Allah. He refused, saying, “Alone, Alone.” And he said, “By Allah, if I knew any word more annoying to you than this, I would say it.” May Allah be pleased with him.

Similarly, when the Liar Musaylimah asked Habib bin Zayd Al-Ansari, “Do you hear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Yes.” Then Musaylimah asked, “Do you bear witness that I am the messenger of Allah?” Habib said, “I do not hear you.” Musaylimah kept cutting him, piece by piece, but he remained steadfast insisting on his words.

It is better and preferable for the Muslim to remain steadfast In his religion, even if that leads to him being killed, as was mentioned by Al-Hafiz lbn ‘Asakir in his biography of ‘Abdullah bin Hudhih Al-Sahmi, one of the Companions….4


And so, according to Ibn Kathir, if someone is being compelled and forced, then they can do and say certain things — even pretend to renounce Islam — in order to save their lives, although it is preferable they face the torture and stick to Islam.

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:09 pm

Iran vows 'decisive response' to any Israel attack

A senior Iranian commander says Israel is unlikely to strike the country but warns that Tel Aviv will receive a 'decisive' response in case of an attack on Tehran.

Lieutenant Commander of the Iranian Army Ground Force, General Kioumars Heidari, sent a 'serious' warning to Israel on Sunday over any potential military strike.

The commander said "the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran are fully prepared to repel any aggression with a decisive response" in case of any Israeli military attack on the country.

The warning comes a day after the Islamic Revolution's Guards Corps (IRGC) Commander General Mohammad Ali Jafari said that Israel could not escape Iranian missiles in case of an attack.

"Iranian missiles have the capacity to target anywhere in Israel including its nuclear sites if the Zionist regime commits such stupidity," Jafari had said.

"We are not responsible for the likely stupidity of the Zionist enemy," he added.

Israel has long threatened to put an end to Iran's nuclear program, which it describes as a 'threat' to its existence, by resorting to military action.

The West, spearheaded by the US and Israel, accuses Iran of pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

Tehran, however, rejects the allegation, arguing that the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT), to which it is a signatory, grants its members the right to conduct peaceful nuclear programs.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=10 ... =351020101

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby Grant » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:22 pm

Somali-Star,

As far as I can tell, your quotations change nothing. Taqiyya is still means"guarding" or "deception", which is what Abu Taqiyya is all about. And HE didn't respond to the direct quotations.

Do you suppose the dude sees himself in competition with Ahmadinejad for some overall chapionship in this area? :lol:

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby abdisamad3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:35 pm

Somalistar..why are you discussing with this infidel grant..dont discuss with him about islamic issues..he is not worthy enough to be discussed with..
just tell the kafir to get lost... :up:

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby abdisamad3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:39 pm

I would allso like to add..iran is a muslim country..it doesnt matter if they follow a wrong teaching of islam or not..we are not the one to judge people's faith..
any one who says the shahada is considered a muslim..why are you guys so much into dividing the muslims into stupid sects...let Allah judge for tehir wrong doing's..
we should stop hating eachother and dividing eachother into sufi/shia/wahabi and so on..this division of the muslims can easily be used by the enemy of islam..
if accept eachother and end our differences the muslim ummah can come on top..insha-allah.. :up:

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby ModerateMuslim » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:40 pm

grant, muslims can't practice 'deception' when it comes to their belief. its a sin like the sin of lying in most cases. but if they lie about matters that are from the fundamentals of their religion, unless their life is in the balance, they become apostates due to their deceptions.

and its even better for them to die than to lie about their creed.

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby ModerateMuslim » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:44 pm

abdisamad3, its a stupid forum, i don't mind discussing with him as he isn't an arrogant kafir.

rafidah aren't muslims. do muslims say that their imams control the universe/atoms? do muslims say that their imams are higher ranked than all of allah's prophets but the last one saw? do muslims say that their imams have knowledge of the unseen? do muslims worship ali, ra, or his son, ra? do muslims slander/hate/make takfeer of the sahaba? etc. etc.

if the rafidah are muslims, why not the jews/christians/hindus, etc?

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Re: Iran vs. Israel

Postby abdisamad3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:50 pm

abdisamad3, its a stupid forum, i don't mind discussing with him as he isn't an arrogant kafir.

rafidah aren't muslims. do muslims say that their imams control the universe/atoms? do muslims say that their imams are higher ranked than all of allah's prophets but the last one saw? do muslims worship ali, ra, or his son, ra? do muslims slander/hatemake takfeer of the sahaba? etc. etc.
no..but if thats what they do..then let Allah deal with them..right know we have an enemy who doesnt say the shahada or believe anything islamic..we cant exclude people from islam..as long as some is saying the shahada they are considered muslim..this is what islam teachs us..I dont see why we should hate Sufi or shia..when we have the kafirs wishing to destroy all muslims including shia and sufi's at our door step..lets not make anyone and every one an enemy and feel we are the only rightous people becouse that would be a big mistake..


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