Somaliland - Somalia Talks

[Salah Al-Din]

I wonder why people who believe in Somali Unity would object to these talks. Is it because the very agreement to these talks is a tacit recognition of the reality on the ground? The whole idea of sitting along the lines of Somaliland Vs Somalia is tantamount to recognition of Somaliland? I never knew people could be so myopic, but it is not only the lay people. This week I read news that the TFG Prime Minister trying to calm the nerves of Somalia's citizens by saying we need to talk to Somaliland, but we are not going to sit as two countries. That is make belief, since that is the whole reason for these talks to discuss that very issue. It is as if, it is a political hot potato that nobody wants to touch. The president Sheikh Sharif was asking traditional elders what to do? Hello are you not the president. Should you not consult your parliament? It doesn't look good for Somalia, they are not organized and can't really say no to the international community that pays their salary that they do not want to have these talks. They will come to the table on June 21st against their wishes.

Cirwaaq, suppose all those things is what is discussed. Who do you think has the upper hand? An elected government by its people (Somaliland), or a selected government formed in foreign capitals (TFG)? Do you think the successor of the TFG would have any more legitimacy; if not why not? How long do you think the talks will drag on? Is this all an exercise to gain more international aid? Just going through the motions to tick the efforts have been made at dialogue. I mean Somalia's reconciliation conferences are anything to go by, we're at number 16 now. Would Somaliland and Somalia's conferences be equally protracted with no end in sight, or will this be used as leverage by Somaliland to tell the international community we've exhausted any kind of talks with Somalia, it is high time Somaliland's de jure sovereignty was recognized.

[Estarix]

• TFG expires 20Aug2012
  
  It is the hope of the international community that there be some form of dialogue and the matter be resolved one way or the other.
  
  Union Vs Independence they are not concerned nor do they excessively promote either of the two options.
  
  Following from 20aug2012 any government that is formed in moqadishu will be no different then those prior to it. Unelected and unrepresentative of the population:
  
  Union with Somaliland would give it greater legitimacy as they would control more territory realistically.
  
  Independence of somaliland would also give it greater legitimacy as they will no longer be claiming territory they do not control.
  
  Let the people have their say
  
  Dayusbra Somalis should be prevented from being Spoilers

  What the UN hopes for Somalia is not important here; Somalia is not a UN project and not owned and run by an organisation, it belongs to the Somali people and their interest supercedes all other interests. Today there is little legitimacy in negotiations because the TFG is not representative of the Somalia and definitely not the communities living in Sool and Sanaag. There is little to gain as the two sides hold totally opposite grounds in regards to the future of Somalia - so they will not agree anyway. Thirdly its not worth courting and sitting down with a group that have time and again shown their stubborness and disrespect in regards to negotiations towards other Somalis from SNM days to Sool and sanaag today, You can sit down with a group you can respect, Somaliland is simply not worth it.

[Cirwaaq]

Salah al-din and Estarix

To address both your question. Over a period of 21 years two states have aproached the international community for assistance namely Somalia and Somaliland.

Somalia seeking assistance with restoring peace Vs Somaliland seeking restoring it's sovereignty.

The international community has prioritised in favour of Somalia's peace for 21years and they are commited to ensuring at the very least to contain the problem that is Somalia. For 21 years every attempt to build a government has failed simply because every government is premised on the notion of representing the territorial boundries of the former Somalia republic including Somaliland. Since the majority in Somaliland reject the Transitional governments they will always inevitably fail. 21 years is sufficient proof of my statement and if it takes another 200years any government employing similar premise will only make a futile attempt to overcome certain failure.

Somaliland can simply walk away from a stalled meeting and show the international community SEEEE we have tried and we told you and you did not listen to us for 21 years... The Failure of a meeting between Somalia and somaliland is the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle needed by Somaliland to present to the international community.

There are only two inevitable outcomes with a 3rd i would class as improbable.

1. Somalia grants Somaliland de jure recognitions
2. Somalia refuses to even discuss recognition and talks stall leading to a default supporting Somaliland's case.

3. One of the States declares war as a result of the Stalemate in the talks(improbable) but ultimately the international community would then have to favour one of the options.

Somalia Vs Somaliland

I believe Somalia's track record places it in a weaker position to bargain as Somaliland could Reject Union-request, cause the meeting to stall and walk away and continue doing as it has done for the past 21 years. Somalia's existance does not effect Somaliland at all however, Somaliland's existance totally undermines Somalia's government simply because they will continue to claim to represent somaliland as anything else is going to be percieved as Recognition.

Some people can see the checkmate steps ahead others wish to modify the rules governing the motion of the players on the board.

- Recognition can lead to possible future Union of all Somali regions.
- Rejection of Somaliland will assure there is never a Union till the end of times.

[udun]

There is no Somalia and Somaliland talks. These people want to present as if two countries are talking when there are no two countries talking. There is an autonomous Somali regional state called Somaliland, who is pursuing secessionist agenda, that is talking to the TFG of Somalia that supposedly represent the whole of Somali Republic.

In my view, these discussions should never take hold since no viable Somali government has taken hold in Mogadishu. When federal Somali government takes hold in Mogadishu that is not transitional, that is when these kinds of discussions should take hold. It is the British government that is pushing for these talks since they have been looking after this SL project from the get go, and they want to assure someting for SL before a viable Somali government takes hold in Mogadishu.

With respect to delegates, as long as PL is there, and the wishes of Awdal, Sool, Sanaag, Cayn, and Higland are respected, they can have million discussions and no one should care. The idea that Somalialnd represent the whole of former British Somaliland is false. The claim that SL controls 90% of Sool and Sanaag and Cayn is false also. Truth is, SL admin reaches less than 10% of SSC regions, and virtually no existance of SL is found in Warsangeli's territories. As long as Ilkajir and Daud Bisinle are part of the delegation, I could careless how many times they meet. Secession discussion should only be confined to those who are pursuing it; not to the rest of the northeners!

Finally, this TFG is a disaster. They should never touch existensial issues and should delay any of these discussions until credible Somali government comes to power. For some reason, this government is nodding their head for any statement from overseas governments or organizations

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

• TFG expires 20Aug2012
  
  It is the hope of the international community that there be some form of dialogue and the matter be resolved one way or the other.
  
  Union Vs Independence they are not concerned nor do they excessively promote either of the two options.
  
  Following from 20aug2012 any government that is formed in moqadishu will be no different then those prior to it. Unelected and unrepresentative of the population:
  
  Union with Somaliland would give it greater legitimacy as they would control more territory realistically.
  
  Independence of somaliland would also give it greater legitimacy as they will no longer be claiming territory they do not control.
  
  Let the people have their say
  
  Dayusbra Somalis should be prevented from being Spoilers

  What the UN hopes for Somalia is not important here; Somalia is not a UN project and not owned and run by an organisation, it belongs to the Somali people and their interest supercedes all other interests. Today there is little legitimacy in negotiations because the TFG is not representative of the Somalia and definitely not the communities living in Sool and Sanaag. There is little to gain as the two sides hold totally opposite grounds in regards to the future of Somalia - so they will not agree anyway. Thirdly its not worth courting and sitting down with a group that have time and again shown their stubborness and disrespect in regards to negotiations towards other Somalis from SNM days to Sool and sanaag today, You can sit down with a group you can respect, Somaliland is simply not worth it.

Markaa, what can you do if you are unable to sit down like civilised people and negotiate with SL in a manner which it's status deserves? Are you going to bring SL back by force? Walaahi I would love to see you try.

[Niya]

.............................................................. .....................

Somaliland having the legal argument

, the political will, and the economic endurance become a federation with Somalia like it was some kind of province like Ximan & Xeeb/ Puntland/Azania?...........................
.

What is the basis of the legal argument Somaliland has, when the way, method and approach taken towards seccession in the first place was not legal?

[SahanGalbeed]

Its because the Western powers want to see a UNITED Somalia. These talks are the first of many that will result in a federation in the next few years. Somaliland has changed its tune under Silaanyo who is a pragmatic leader who realizes the status quo will not lead Somaliland to where it needs to be. The end game is either a federation or federation with an independence referendum option like South Sudan.

The role the international community { western powers + Africa } in my opinion is that of an insurance broker { he who sells insurance}
Insurance

def .A practice by which a company provides a guarantee of compensation for specified loss, damage, illness, or death in return for payment...

Somaliland has nothing to lose except their dignity by frantically talking out of their rear end
Somaliland and Somalia are both inhabited by Somalis .Let's keep it simple here and ignore the noise .

[Conqueror]

There is no Somalia and Somaliland talks. These people want to present as if two countries are talking when there are no two countries talking. There is an autonomous Somali regional state called Somaliland, who is pursuing secessionist agenda, that is talking to the TFG of Somalia that supposedly represent the whole of Somali Republic.

In my view, these discussions should never take hold since no viable Somali government has taken hold in Mogadishu. When federal Somali government takes hold in Mogadishu that is not transitional, that is when these kinds of discussions should take hold. It is the British government that is pushing for these talks since they have been looking after this SL project from the get go, and they want to assure someting for SL before a viable Somali government takes hold in Mogadishu.

With respect to delegates, as long as PL is there, and the wishes of Awdal, Sool, Sanaag, Cayn, and Higland are respected, they can have million discussions and no one should care. The idea that Somalialnd represent the whole of former British Somaliland is false. The claim that SL controls 90% of Sool and Sanaag and Cayn is false also. Truth is, SL admin reaches less than 10% of SSC regions, and virtually no existance of SL is found in Warsangeli's territories. As long as Ilkajir and Daud Bisinle are part of the delegation, I could careless how many times they meet. Secession discussion should only be confined to those who are pursuing it; not to the rest of the northeners!

Finally, this TFG is a disaster. They should never touch existensial issues and should delay any of these discussions until credible Somali government comes to power. For some reason, this government is nodding their head for any statement from overseas governments or organizations

Well put, Udun.

[SahanGalbeed]

Somaliland and Puntland are not the same .
Tribally and structurally speaking .
One is multi tribal and democratic the other single tribal where the leader is appointed by his tribe .{ the majeerten subclan of daarood }
Either the rest of the Somalis create, I don't really care how many , MULTI tribal states or Somaliland will go its own way .

Very simple , even the DUMBEST daarood can understand it , I hope .

[SahanGalbeed]

Don't forget this my brothers and sisters .
3 kind of people
1/ the Innovators
2/ the Imitators
3/the Idiots .

[KingMJ]

What is the point of these talks again? If Somaliland is asking for recognition..they wont get it... and if the TFG is asking for Somaliland to drop it's secession dream, it won't happen. So what is the benefit of the said talks, agreeing to disagree?

We should have a good relationship still, we can work on trade deals and support the people in both nations instead of talking about politics

[Salah Al-Din]

.............................................................. .....................

Somaliland having the legal argument

, the political will, and the economic endurance become a federation with Somalia like it was some kind of province like Ximan & Xeeb/ Puntland/Azania?...........................
.

Niya good question. Somaliland has legal argument because Somaliland as an independent State joined Somalia to form the Somali Republic. Unfortunately, this union was never ratified in parliament. The events that took place in 1960 are as follows:

1. Somaliland becomes Independent on June 26 1960. On June 27 Somaliland Parliament passes a law called Act of Union with Somalia to form the Somali Republic. This document was never signed or passed by the Parliament of Somalia.
2. On July 1, the Parlaiment of Somalia passed an act of union called Atto di Unione which was significantly different from the Act of Union that the Somaliland Parliament passed. This Atto di Unione was never passed in the Parliament of Somaliland.
3. The Union went ahead but legally it was not null and void since no single Act of Union was signed by both countries. This caused the President to use a presidential decree to make an act of union between Somaliland and Somalia on January 31 1961 a full 6 months later to be in effect retroactively for July 1 1960. This document too was never ratified in Somali Republic's parliament. Presidential decrees need to have parliament pass them otherwise they become null and void.
4. The government of the Somalia Republic, which was run by politicians from Somalia, decided to try to ratify the union through a constitution in the end of 1961. The constitution was boycotted in Somaliland and only 100,000 people who voted and those who voted they overwhelmingly rejected it. Yet in Somalia it was said 1.7 million people voted when in the past elections only 600 thousand were eligible to vote. The tiny village called wanloweyn returned 99,000 yes votes which was almost equal to all the votes in Somaliland.
5. This caused Somaliland officers in the army to try a coup de tat in the end of 1961. This coup was not successful; however, when they were put on trail they were let go by the courts simply because these military officers did not swear to defend the Somali Republic, but they swore to defend Somaliland. Therefore there could be no treason against the Somali Republic.

Considering the fact that two states, Somaliland and Somalia joined together to form the Somali Republic. Then logic would dictate that a) Somaliland cannot be equal to mere federated provinces of Somalia like Puntland or Ximan & Xeeb. b) since no single act of union was signed, there is no legal requirement compelling Somaliland to remain part of Somalia c) since the Somali Republic ceased to exist in 1991 there is no reality on the ground to keep them united since Somaliland controls its territory.

The only thing keeping Somaliland and Somalia together is the politics of the international community remaining neutral to the recognition of Somaliland. Even the sole super power in the world the USA has said, they have no qualms of Somaliland getting de jure recognition; they just want another African state to go first. They wouldn't say that, they could have said no Somaliland has to remain part of Somalia. Surely the USA is not scared of Somaliland. As such the issue is not a matter of legality, but a matter of politics. In this regard, Somaliland is well prepared to go the distance and continue to pursue their quest for de jure recognition.

Also, I must make this point it is Somaliland that has asked for these talks, it is not coming from the international community. The President of Somaliland has been calling for such mediation as far back as 2009 when he was the chairman of the Kulmiye Party in opposition.

[Salah Al-Din]

D/P

[The`Republic]

Don't we have more important things to talk about?

[Salah Al-Din]

Don't we have more important things to talk about?

These talks are very important. In fact finding the solution to the Somaliland & Somalia impasse will be the most significant event in the horn of africa this decade.