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Union So gal

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SultanOrder
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Union So gal

Postby SultanOrder » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:36 pm

You said two things, 1. Freedom is good, and 2. Sharia law diminishes freedom. If I were to hold both these to be true, then it would logically follow that sharia law is bad. Let us not get bogged down in a theological argument of good and bad, and let us speak of this matter in a philosophical manner. I do not want any condemnations, nor unnecessary provocations.

My first question is; define to me your understanding of freedom. Then, we can better understand why you believe the diminishing of freedom is either good or bad.

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Re: Union So gal

Postby grandpakhalif » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:22 pm

Should someone be free to insult the Messengers, Books of Allah and mock Islam? No! Theres no such thing as complete freedom in Islamic shariah, one must abide by what God has permitted and the boundaries set by him. If you transgress you only ruin yourself.

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Re: Union So gal

Postby SultanOrder » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:24 pm

Grandpa, indeed what you said is true. But, let us look at this outside the view of Islam, and see if we can come to some conclusions.

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Re: Union So gal

Postby union » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:19 pm

You said two things, 1. Freedom is good, and 2. Sharia law diminishes freedom. If I were to hold both these to be true, then it would logically follow that sharia law is bad. Let us not get bogged down in a theological argument of good and bad, and let us speak of this matter in a philosophical manner. I do not want any condemnations, nor unnecessary provocations.

My first question is; define to me your understanding of freedom. Then, we can better understand why you believe the diminishing of freedom is either good or bad.
Perfect Order,

I am not a philosopher, just a freedom loving American man. I cannot engage with you in philosophical debate, but I will give you my opinions...

Some aspects of shariah law trouble me. Such as the death sentence imposed on apostates, the mandatory tax expected of non-Muslims, the severe and arguably inhumane criminal punishments such as amputating the limbs of thieves or stoning to death people for the minor of offense of sleeping with someone other than their spouse. I know you will come respond by proclaiming that all these unsavory aspects of shariah that I just listed are only minor parts of it, but unless there is a movement to expunge them from the shariah people will always be suspicious and paranoid of it.

As for my definition of freedom, it's nothing fancy. it includes all the basic rights enshrined in our constitution (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom to select own government, etc) and also security from oppressive government and oppressive people (such as clerics).

Unless shariah law will not only safeguard all these freedoms I already enjoin, and even enlarge them, I will continue to oppose it. I don't want to be told you can't do X,Y, Z because a religious scholar a few centuries go inferred that it was against the will of God.

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Re: Union So gal

Postby grandpakhalif » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:39 pm

Fock u mod for deleting my post, union is a kaafir who deserves to be banned!!!

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Re: Union So gal

Postby metamorphosis » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:45 pm

From two pages to 5 posts. What the hell happened. :lol:

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Re: Union So gal

Postby Twist » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:58 pm

From two pages to 5 posts. What the hell happened. :lol:
So I am not crazy & it really says 2 pages, innit? WTH! Waanba yaabaye! :lol:

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Re: Union So gal

Postby SultanOrder » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:20 am



As for my definition of freedom, it's nothing fancy. it includes all the basic rights enshrined in our constitution (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom to select own government, etc) and also security from oppressive government and oppressive people (such as clerics).

Unless shariah law will not only safeguard all these freedoms I already enjoin, and even enlarge them, I will continue to oppose it. I don't want to be told you can't do X,Y, Z because a religious scholar a few centuries go inferred that it was against the will of God.
Let's put aside the hududs (penal punishments) since they have very little to do with restricting freedom but protecting freedom.

As for freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, government, all have limitations. There is hate speech, libel/slander, inciting crime, relgions are only as free as they do not go against the constitution, you cannot assemble with out permits or for prohibited causes/reasons, you can't go against the government or it is considered treason etc.

So, Union, this constitution limits freedom which is good, so it must be bad.

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Re: Union So gal

Postby union » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:12 am



As for my definition of freedom, it's nothing fancy. it includes all the basic rights enshrined in our constitution (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom to select own government, etc) and also security from oppressive government and oppressive people (such as clerics).

Unless shariah law will not only safeguard all these freedoms I already enjoin, and even enlarge them, I will continue to oppose it. I don't want to be told you can't do X,Y, Z because a religious scholar a few centuries go inferred that it was against the will of God.
Let's put aside the hududs (penal punishments) since they have very little to do with restricting freedom but protecting freedom.

As for freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, government, all have limitations. There is hate speech, libel/slander, inciting crime, relgions are only as free as they do not go against the constitution, you cannot assemble with out permits or for prohibited causes/reasons, you can't go against the government or it is considered treason etc.

So, Union, this constitution limits freedom which is good, so it must be bad.
My definition of freedom never included the right to do whatever whenever. I do think there should be reasonable and justifiable limits on what people can do. Plotting to overthrow democratically elected governments, slandering others, murder, rape, inciting violence, etc are all examples of things that ought to be banned in a civilized society, and for good reason. I do not think it reasonable and justifiable to tax people merely for practicing a different religion. I do not think it reasonable and justifiable to murder someone for being an adulterer. These are extreme actions, and I invite you in joining me in opposing them if you truly are a supporter of freedom.


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