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Islamic laws plus man made laws is the way forward

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biko
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Islamic laws plus man made laws is the way forward

Postby biko » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 am

or is it?.....i was just wondering if its posible in this day and age to have islamic laws alone and flourish like way back when?

from my understanding of The Islamic laws of governance is that, they are more aplicable to those in authority in order to protect the deen as well as managing the affairs of the Ummah; but how much of the original sources of this laws - do so-called islamic nations- put to use today? or just like any other government, there is no escaping the tentacles of present day politics and management which leaves no room for Islamic sharia without mixing them with all other existing laws? is rewriting Islam the only way forward as the teachings of modernists insist on? is it even posible to emulate some of the first communities of islam, in a time where muslims could only be described as 'scuttered herds, lost confused and with no sense of direction all thanks to a natural mistrust amongst muslims?

how about Semi-secularism? a lilttle bit of this and a little bit of that; a democratic vertue by all means but is it achievable?


so, what say you faraxs and xalimos?..lol

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Postby avowedly-agnostic » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:18 am

First and foremost let me just remark that I hope there won't be a repeat of mods and the admin deleting and censoring opinions contrary to theirs.

Can we have a system which combines and synthesises in complete harmony Islamic shari’a law with secular law? In order for us to answer this question satisfactorily, we must first determine what it is we want from our laws. Do we merely want to create a combination of religious and secular laws in order to silence critics of Shari’a law, or do we want to establish laws which guarantee citizens their inalienable civil liberties and human rights in order to protect and shield them from tyranny?

If the purpose of legislating laws and setting up a constitution is to ensure that the freedoms and individual liberties of all are respected and not under any circumstance infringed upon, then I think all rational persons would have to agree that Islamic law is incapable of carrying out that function. Islamic law places great stress on strict social morality, and its laws which are enshrined in the Qur'an and in the Ahadith enforce these doctrines at the expense of freedom and individual liberties.

The fundamental difference between Islamic and secular law is the concept of the HARM PRINCIPLE proposed by the 19th century English philosopher and thinker: John S. Mill.

The HARM PRINCIPLE states "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." and by "harm", it's meant physical harm. Much of secular law is based on this benign principle. In fact, many court legislations in the U.S. and Europe have often referred to the harm principle when making decisions about homosexuality, pornography etc. And they judged that because the aforementioned activities don’t constitute “harm” to anyone, then they oughtn’t be made illegal (irrespective of whether they may be deemed by some as immoral)

When one looks at Islamic law however, one finds that the Shari’a often illegitimately interferes with the private affairs of citizens. This is in direct opposition and contrast to the principles of secular law which states that the state should not under any circumstance prohibit, stop or interfere with the self-regarding matters that only concern the individual. Islam however doesn’t at all recognise the harm principle, or the notion that the state has no business in controlling the private affairs of individuals.

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Postby avowedly-agnostic » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:23 am

...
To cite one example, according to Islamic law, pre-marital sex between two consenting adults is considered an immorality, offensive in the highest degree to Allah and His Messenger, therefore warranting severe punishment with 100 or so lashings. Clearly this goes contrary to the idea that people should be allowed to do as they please so long as they not harm others (physically).

To cite another example; Islamic law prohibits the consumption of alcohol, and it’s considered a gross impiety deserving corporal punishment by lashing. Again this is another instant where the Shari’a illegitimately interferes with the private affairs of individuals.

One last example: Islamic law prohibits the free-mixing and intermingling of persons of the opposite sex be it domestically or publicly, that have no relation to each other. It considers it a grave immorality and a sin which the authority should take active steps to prevent from happening. It is a well known fact and a part of their jurisprudence for some Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran to have religious police that patrol the streets to deter unrelated males and females from meeting, and to enforce rigid laws of segregation.

One could cite numerous examples where Shari’a law illegitimately encroaches on the individual liberties of people on the untenable grounds that it is banning acts that are haraam.

In short, secular and Shari’a laws are incompatible simply because the former seeks to promotes and maximise individual liberty and freedom , and the latter seeks to control and dictate to people what they may and may not do under the guise of maintaining morality and righteousness.
Last edited by avowedly-agnostic on Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby gurey25 » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:26 am

AA tis question was directed at muslims not athiests.
You have nothing to contribute to somalias political future,
if you have technical skills like medicen and engineering etc etc,
then we maybe tolerant enough to let you live amongst us peacefully,

in the meantime you can always enjoy the secualr democracy and freedon of the united kingdom.


==========================================
Biko ofcourse it is possible.
Shareeca lays down the groundwork for the laws,
we need human made interpretations and laws to fill the gaps.

and you should rememeber that legislature is different from administration.
There is nothing wrong with a democraticly elected adminitration in a country ruled by the shareeca.

unfortunatley the problem is education, our Islamic colleges and other schools of higher education in the muslim world produce intellectually stunted graduates that are not fit for the challenges of todays world

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Postby ERROR » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:08 am

biko, it is all about interpretation. In today's reality there's no unified and agreed upon islamic laws. Every branch of Islam wants to interpret the Kitab their way plus all other religions have their own sects. So instead of fighting over which sect is right, it is much better to sit together and create a law that embraces all humanity.

In today's reality, your religion is between u and God. If u disagree with me, then how can u live with let's say Christians, Shia (and Sunni if you are shia) also within Sunni, you have so many bub-sects. A good example is what's happening in Mogadishu and Iraq now.

Common sense is what's needed. I’d vote for man made laws that embrace my personal believes.

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Postby avowedly-agnostic » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:12 am

[quote=Gurey25]AA tis question was directed at muslims not athiests. [quote]

Gurey, you seem to have tremendous difficulty making the distinction between atheists and agnostics. I would've thought my alias would've been suffcient indication as to what category of free-thinkers I belong to. Evidently you're still terribly perplexed . Go on however, have another shot at it. Only this time pay close attention to my alias (avowedly-agnostic)- in particular the word which comes after the hyphon. Good luck now!

Also, Biko from what I can gather directs the question at no particular group of people. So your insinuation that atheists and agnostics should stay away is unfounded.

Instead of mounting attacks on Mr avowedly, perhaps you should attempt to engage the topic at hand. I've made the compelling case against Shari'a law and why I feel it is incompatible with secularism and the values of liberty, even citing the philosophical works of John Stuart Mill to strengthen my case, whilst you on the other hand have made no attempts to rebutt or refute my points, instead you've resorted to childish and immature attacks on Mr avowedly.

I'm sorry to have to say my dear child, but you're an absolute disgrace! You really ought to be ashamed of yourself! It is incompetent and ignorant dimwits the likes of you that have no place in the future of somalia.

Now justify your flimsy argument that Islamic law and secularism are somehow compatible, or admit they're not.

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Postby Galol » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:16 pm

Biko

Islamic laws are human laws masquearding as edicts imposed on man by an ET through man. Therin lies their incurable weakness: man masquerading as intermediary between men and ET God did not leave man a room to ammend to breathe to think to imagine to progress.

So man introduced laws for his time - kill, behaed, amputate, stone, poke, enslave, rob.

God's law is outdated. How can we judge God? Sorry how can we judge man?

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Postby LionHeart-112 » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:21 pm

^^the old bit.ch is still whining...get a fu.cking life already, dumbass...how's your arthritis btw?
Laughing Laughing

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Postby avowedly-agnostic » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:18 am

Eloquently put Galol. You're absolutely correct. Islamic law (the Shari'a) is nothing more than the creation of irrational men. I say "irrational" because it (Islamic law) too often penalises in the most savagary way, those innocent pleasures which only concern the individual.

But for the sake of argument, even if we were to grant that the Shari'a is indeed the decreed laws of the Almighty, then as I've argued above, Islamic law is still subordinate to secular and progressive laws.


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