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Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Dedicated for Somaliland politics and affairs.

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LiquidHYDROGEN
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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:29 pm

D/p

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby X.Playa » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:11 pm

What the hell is a GDP any way? its the total of all goods , produced or exchanged divided by the number of population , a meaningless world bank mumbo jumbo, in America one of the supposedly richest countries in the world where 90% of its wealth is owned by by the top 10% , its poor population are made rich by cooking the accounting books of this GDP formula by dividing the wealth of Bill Gates and the Koch brothers among the poor single mothers on welfare to give the illusion that everybody in America earns 40k a year loool.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby gurey25 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:38 pm

What the hell is a GDP any way? its the total of all goods , produced or exchanged divided by the number of population , a meaningless world bank mumbo jumbo, in America one of the supposedly richest countries in the world where 90% of its wealth is owned by by the top 10% , its poor population are made rich by cooking the accounting books of this GDP formula by dividing the wealth of Bill Gates and the Koch brothers among the poor single mothers on welfare to give the illusion that everybody in America earns 40k a year loool.

GDP is nonesense, GNI coefficient is better.
but still you should look at develpment, providing everyone with housing, water, electricity, Food, clothing, medical care and education and a way to make money.

all this can be done quickly and easily if you throw away the economics text book and treat all this like a n engineering excercise,
I want to go there, so i need to do this, with this many tools and resources.

we need to free our minds.

The most important issue is currency, this is a huge deal.
We need to attack this problem unconventionally.

solve the currency issue and all the things above fall into place automatically.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:53 pm

You're right. The American model is terrible. The better approach is the scandinavian. Better wealth distribution, better health and education and more productivity. To have that have to invest in Human capital, the only resource that matters ultimately. It is the task of the government to invest in primary education (including more time devoted to secular studies, too many fly-ridden dugsis masquerading as schools) and healthcare. More people + better skills and training = success.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby X.Playa » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:04 pm

Unless people's perceptions of what does it mean to be "poor" change , we will never get there. The rat-race theory of every man on earth to work for the top less 1% have to first be abandoned. Somaliland and much of Africa are richer then most of Europe taken away the materials, in Somaliland the social organization of groups and families are still intact, something the capitalist have killed in the west. That's why people are much happier in these societies . What we need is much deeper then what gurey or the kid who created this thread aspire to.

We need to realize that nations today have became a private properties of large corperations and their owners , where the land, and what's above it or in it including the people themselves are harvested and traded . Everything is privatized for profit, even the air is traded now days through the emission quota. People and poor nations are forced to participate in the economy of musical-chairs , in this dog eat dog social/national Darwinism the majority of humanity will loose and the apex few who benefit from this skewed system will always win.

What Somaliland needs is not to become another " Asian tiger" where cheap labour ( slavery by another word) is exploited to produce cheaper goods to sell to the few rich in the west or the majority poor with credit-crads. This system is done and that's what most of you still recommending . We need to think beyond that, we have to get out of the box, and the question is...WHY DO WE NEED PROFIT , MONEY and these elusive things that brought hell on humanity.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:21 pm

I agree with everything you've said. I also agree the indhayar approach of cheaper labour, longer hours is not humane. But it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and if we are debating the nature of money and capitalism and we aren't rapidly industrialising we're next on the menu. The difference between us and them (and by us I mean all the nations that suffered the humiliation of colonialism and still suffer to this day) is that they want it more and will force their will upon others. The rest of us were either oblivious like Somalis or just apathetic like Qing China and they paid for it through 100s of years of suffering and shame. What I'm trying to say is that if we aren't playing the game and playing it well then we'll have to start our own game. Any suggestions to getting out of this rat-race as you call it? I can't think of anything besides some sort of internal trade network between somali states and that would take us back to the medieval era.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby Methylamine » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:33 pm

Somaliland should look at Taiwan on how to be resourceful and self-sufficient as a nation with limited recognition. There needs to be some sort of cultural revolution, where being competitive and not settling for the bare minimum is a mentality ingrained amongst our people.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby X.Playa » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:50 pm

Its indeed not an easy question, billions of people and 100's of nations are struggling with this question. The system itself needs a poor exploited majority to function, haven't you heared the Wall Street term " the market needs a fool to function". Our problems are not inherent but its caused by this very system we aspire to copy. 100 years ago , our ancestor never saw themselves as poor, because they valued things differently, their wealth was tangible , horses, camels, sheep, women and children and living among their kins, that's was their wealth. Today we are made to value things according to the capitalist formula. We have to have nice cars, we have to have great house, we have to have glittery things so that we can boast and brag to our neighbour that we are better then him.


Karl Paul Polanyi the forefather of " economic democracy" and one of the men most capitalist love to be unnoticed , puplorized what was natural to humans but the capitalist choose to ignore and that is " humans are averse to work for others and they are mostly coerced and when humans make enough he is more likely to work less and less eventually choosing to enjoy life", the key word is that " enough", in a capitalist society the system is rigged that so the majority of us are made never to have that " enough" other wise no one will keep working for the capitalist class . Similarly nations too are made to never have enough of anything that will make their population free to enjoy life.

What we need in Somaliland and in Africa and the entire world post-free market capitalism is a new system of making and trading goods not for profit but for beyond profit. We can have a house , a little patch of land that's enough for all of us, we can build nice hospitals roads and all without profits as motive, and once that evil profit is taken out of our way of thinking we can be free for real. The only reason why most people and nations are "poor" is due to the theory of profit " one man wins it all" for what???? just so he can brag to his neighbour that he has more.

Karl Paul Polanyi discovered that in a village where all men have relatively the same standard of wealth , be it in huts or in cows most people are happy and never see themselves as poor, but as soon a man comes and builds a mansion in that neighbourhood of huts , everybody becomes poor and sad, a thing most diaspora somalilanders do to their people back home today. You see been poor, is subjective , people become poor when they compare themselves to the rich, and we in Somaliland are exactly doing that.
Last edited by X.Playa on Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:52 pm

Somaliland should look at Taiwan on how to be resourceful and self-sufficient as a nation with limited recognition. There needs to be some sort of cultural revolution, where being competitive and not settling for the bare minimum is a mentality ingrained amongst our people.
Exactly. It comes from being nomads. Always satisfied with just getting by. That's not a way to live, you have to have ambition and invest in the future for the sake of posterity. There's a famous story where a Caliph and his retinue are riding past an olive grove and he spots an old man planting an olive tree. The Caliph is amused and asks why the old man is wasting his time and energy planting the tree because he will surely die before it reaches maturity (olive trees took years to grow). The old man replies that if the previous generation didn't plant anything, he'd be starving right now and it's only right for him to also provide for the next generation. The Caliph likes this answer, rewards the old man with gold and tell his men to help the old man.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:01 pm

Its indeed not an easy question, billions of people and 100's of nations are struggling with this question. The system itself needs a poor exploited majority to function, haven't you heared the Wall Street term " the market needs a fool to function". Our problems are not inherent but its caused by this very system we aspire to copy. 100 years ago , our ancestor never saw themselves as poor, because they valued things differently, their wealth was tangible , horses, camels, sheep, women and children and living among their kins, that's was their wealth. Today we are made to value things according to the capitalist formula. We have to have nice cars, we have to have great house, we have to have glittery things so that we can boast and brag to our neighbour that we are better then him.


Karl Paul Polanyi the forefather of " economic democracy" and one of the men most capitalist love to be unnoticed , puplorized what was natural to humans but the capitalist choose to ignore and that is " humans are averse to work for others and they are mostly coerced and when humans make enough he is more likely to work less and less eventually choosing to enjoy life", the key word is that " enough", in a capitalist society the system is rigged that so the majority of us are made never to have that " enough" other wise no one will keep working for the capitalist class . Similarly nations too are made to never have enough of anything that will make their population free to enjoy life.

What we need in Somaliland and in Africa and the entire world post-free market capitalism is a new system of making and trading goods not for profit but for beyond profit. We can have a house , a little patch of land that's enough for all of us, we can build nice hospitals roads and all without profits as motive, and once that evil profit is taken out of our way of thinking we can be free for real. The only reason why most people and nations are "poor" is due to the theory of profit " one man wins it all" for what???? just so he can brag to his neighbour that he has more.

Karl Paul Polanyi discovered that in a village where all men have relatively the same standard of wealth , be it in huts or in cows most people are happy and never see themselves as poor, but as soon a man comes and builds a mansion in that neighbourhood of huts , everybody becomes poor and sad, a thing most diaspora somalilanders do to their people back home today. You see been poor, is subjective , people become poor when they compare themselves to the rich, and we in Somaliland are exactly doing that.
That's a very Buddist answer. Bro what you're suggesting is nothing short of Utopia. There will never be such a system because man will always want what his brother has and more. No doubt our ancestors thought they were wealthy kings but that changed in the face of British and italian bayonets and modern warfare. We will not be caught sleeping again. We must not. This system is here for the time being and it is in our bet interest to either cleverly manipulate it to our favour like the east Asians or develop another alternative.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby X.Playa » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:08 pm

People wants many things encouraged or given the opportunity but its nothing genetic its rather learned . what are you advocating is a total suicide for Somalis, you have no idea what this system has done to nations like Bangaladish, Thiland , and all the cheap labour nations, they are worked to death for a company that pays them peanuts , and other wealthy nations come to their countries to fuckkk their women and children, and adopting the system have produced nothing but few billionaires and 99% of poor slaves. Is it worth it??? not to my opinion, we are better off with what we have if we can see it, but obviously you cant see it, what you see is the high rises of London and new York, the 5 star hotels, the million dollar cars, which will never be afforded by any of us..as the ultimate goal.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby gurey25 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:18 pm

Liqued you did not understand xplayas post.
what he is advocating is moving beyond capitalism and socialism they are both outdated and inefficient.
We need to free our minds first, once you escape mental slavery you see the world in a different light, all the problems we face even the social ones
have solutions, you become more optimistic.

and
What we need is much deeper then what gurey or the kid who created this thread aspire to.
My vision for the future is actually quite unconventional and extremely ambitious,
i am forcing myself to think realistically that is why i am focusing on one step at a time.
You cannot jump to a modern technological state in one leap, there are too many obstacles social more than economic to overcome.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby X.Playa » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:24 pm

we can teach our people the price they have to pay to trying to become another Korea , I doubt it if any one of them will choose it known the full impact of that gamble. Reality is we will never be rich, reality is we can only offer cheap labour to the world and cheap natural resources and the rest is just die trying it.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby thegoodshepherd » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:25 pm

And 300% tax rate on qat would help as a deterent as well as put some cash in the treasury.
NO :mindblown:

The qat dealers fund and finance infrastructure in Somalia.
For example: it was the local qat importers that pay for the resurfacing of many of the roads in Somalia.
Qat has some benefits and is one of the largest industries in the orn of africa.

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Re: Somaliland vs Iraqi Kurdistan

Postby gurey25 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:26 pm

This system is here for the time being and it is in our bet interest to either cleverly manipulate it to our favour like the east Asians or develop another alternative.
no im afraid not, the export model is over, it only came into existance due to the cold war, the desire to prop up asian countries to prevent communism which was very popular and also the desire for the corporation for more profit and more political power.
Destroying labour unions through outsourcing manufacturing both makes profits higher and reduces the power of unions and increases political power of corporations.

Today the US has been hollowed out, the dollars position as the reserve currency of the world is in question and it will definatley be overshadowed
within 10 years. With the end of dollar hegemony the US will be forced to behave like a normal economy with checks and balances , meaning it will be bankrupt,

So there wont be a market for the products of cheap labour..
China is already moving towards internal consumption and growth and away from the export oriented model , China is already moving towards greater trade with Asian neighbours.

The East asian Export oriented model is dead my friend,

We finally have a chance to try the ISI, or import substitution model, to fine tune it and make it work..


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