Islam--is our religion flawed?

[Shirib]

^^^^^ Just disprove all the things he comes up.

The truth will always outshine the lie, no matter how bright the lie is.

Hopefully we can show him that what the media is feeding him is a lie and he will come back within the folds of Islam.

[Enlightened~Sista]

disprove aaa?? naah wont waste my precious time and energy on a complete stranger who we dont even know what he/she is or were nor do we know if they are sincere and honest..

[eternauta]

This topic should have been deleted long ago.

[ibroX]

2 things

Firsts making people pay jiziya is not a form of persecution its taxes. I live in America and I pay taxes, am I getting persecuted? Non Muslims payed Jiziya, but did not pay Zakat, while Muslims payed Zakat, but did not pay the Jiziya, thats not persecution, thats taxes. U pay taxes where u live or u go to jail, thats everywhere.

That's a poor analogy. EVERYONE in America pays taxes based on how much money they ]make. Making people pay tax in and of itself is not discriminatory or persecutory--the American government needs to collect taxes in order to function, and it taxes all of its races and religions UNDER THE SAME RULES. The jiziya is not the same--it is a tax for being a member of a different religion, a tax on not being a Muslim. It's like taxing Mexicans more money because they're Mexicans. If the American government did this--then your analogy would work (but the argument wouldn't, as the fact that other people commit certain actions has no baring on whether or not that action is morally right.)

Second, the Muslim conquest were for land. No one was forcefully converted. Many people in that area converted because they saw as Islam as a fair religion and a way out of the Hindu caste system where someone would be born an untouchable and could never get out of it.

There is no history of Islam forcing people to convert, conquests were for land, and none were persecuted or forced to convert. Egypt was taken over in the 9th centure byt the Muslims, and it wasn't until the 12th century where the majority of the population in Egypt became Muslim, that doesn't sound like persecution, but free will.

I concede this point. You hear me? I was wrong. Doing some research I found that cases of forced conversions have been rare in Islam, but this doesn't detract from my larger argument.

The USA has a large Muslim population while Saudi Arabia has next to none. Why would u find a church where Christians don't live?

You are sidestepping the point--Muslims in Saudi Arabia forbid the construction of churches. There most certainly are Christians in Saudi Arabia--not native populations but visiting foreign workers who stay for a while. If these people wanted to practice their religion, Saudi Arabia won't let them do so--there isn't a single church in that country. Muslims are tolerated in the West but Muslims can't tolerate other religions as this point clearly demonstrates.

[RebelLion]

Ibrox

There are a lot of americans in Saudi arabia, they have their own secluded place and I'm sure they have a place of worship within those confines. But saudi arabia does not represent islam, and saudi arabia is an ally of america. So what exactly is your criticism, do you have anything besides fox news propaganda?

[ibroX]

Ibrox

There are a lot of americans in Saudi arabia, they have their own secluded place and I'm sure they have a place of worship within those confines. But saudi arabia does not represent islam, and saudi arabia is an ally of america. So what exactly is your criticism, do you have anything besides fox news propaganda?

You aren't even thinking about what you're saying. "They have their own secluded place and worship there?" Why can't a church be established outside the secluded areas for these Christians to practice their faith?

That's funny you should say "Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam." Yes it does--it funds a lot of mosque constructions in the West and contains the holy cities of Islam!

[FAH1223]

Ibrox

There are a lot of americans in Saudi arabia, they have their own secluded place and I'm sure they have a place of worship within those confines. But saudi arabia does not represent islam, and saudi arabia is an ally of america. So what exactly is your criticism, do you have anything besides fox news propaganda?

You aren't even thinking about what you're saying. "They have their own secluded place and worship there?" Why can't a church be established outside the secluded areas for these Christians to practice their faith?

That's funny you should say "Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam." Yes it does--it funds a lot of mosque constructions in the West and contains the holy cities of Islam!

No it doesn't. They may be the custodians of the two holy cities. But that doesn't mean a damned thing.

If you knew anything about Islam beforehand, you wouldn't be using Saudi Arabia or Taliban as any examples.

You really are reaching

[ibroX]

Ibrox

There are a lot of americans in Saudi arabia, they have their own secluded place and I'm sure they have a place of worship within those confines. But saudi arabia does not represent islam, and saudi arabia is an ally of america. So what exactly is your criticism, do you have anything besides fox news propaganda?

You aren't even thinking about what you're saying. "They have their own secluded place and worship there?" Why can't a church be established outside the secluded areas for these Christians to practice their faith?

That's funny you should say "Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam." Yes it does--it funds a lot of mosque constructions in the West and contains the holy cities of Islam!

No it doesn't. They may be the custodians of the two holy cities. But that doesn't mean a damned thing.

If you knew anything about Islam beforehand, you wouldn't be using Saudi Arabia or Taliban as any examples.

You really are reaching

I never used the Taliban as an example--Saudi Arabia is the heart of the Islamic world, the country that contains a lot of the history of the religion. Saudi Arabia represents pure Islam--they follow the Koran literally--hence why they're so fucked up. One of the richest Muslim countries--and only because of the accident of oil, which they could only unearth with help by the West. Lol.

[KlashneFolk]

1 2 3 4 BIG MONKEYS DO JUMP

[FAH1223]

I never used the Taliban as an example--Saudi Arabia is the heart of the Islamic world, the country that contains a lot of the history of the religion. Saudi Arabia represents pure Islam--they follow the Koran literally--hence why they're so **** up. One of the richest Muslim countries--and only because of the accident of oil, which they could only unearth with help by the West. Lol.

they dont follow the sharia much

its mainly man made innovations

[Wareer]

Ibox, the chinks of your armor is that you are desperatly and intentionally seeking to impugn Islam or use fabricated lies against Islam. I consider myself not as a scholar of Islam, but I can give you a little insight of what needs to be understood here.

If you are religoius polemicist, you can reflect on the dialogue of Ahmed Deedat's lectures and debates with a Christian priests. They are sure helpful. Another site that is of most helpful is http://www.harunyahya.com. You will find critical topics like "the Dark faces of Darwinism" "Universe and Creation" "Moral Values of Islam" "Faith and Reflection"
"History: Politics and Strategy"

If you're a liberal, question yourself or thought of changing how America pursues its interest without respect to moral values.

Past American History is full of mass extermination, slavery, subjugation and domination on indigenous peoples.

Contemporary American history is now full of the same policies but coached in different terms.

For instance, the Patriot Act uses inhuman and degrading treament and punishment on its own citizens. American citizens can be detained indefinately and tortured to get false information.


Islam is perfect according to our faith. Faith does not need to be questioned since Men is inherently imperfect in his thougths and actions.

Is Islam opposed to modernity and technological revolution? Despite the Media's portrayal of Islam as backward, today's civilization stand on the shoulders of the golden years of Islam.

I have just finished reading an article, and it writes that 70% of American engineers today are foreign born.

We had been interdependent, benefited from cross-fertilization: interchange of different cultures, ideas and beliefs that is mutually productive, and had engaged in destructive wars that consummed and eradicated whole societies.

What needs to be done?

Respect each nation's right to self-determination, profess and practice its own religion, support oppressed socieites and give their freedom, not supporting dictators, deconstruction of the international system for a better future and coexistance. If not, we are heading into the perilous path of the Nazis, Crusaders, Slavery, until this civiliazation which came as a result of a systemization of many civilizations collapses.

[KlashneFolk]

That's a poor analogy. EVERYONE in America pays taxes based on how much money they ]make. Making people pay tax in and of itself is not discriminatory or persecutory--the American government needs to collect taxes in order to function, and it taxes all of its races and religions UNDER THE SAME RULES. The jiziya is not the same--it is a tax for being a member of a different religion, a tax on not being a Muslim. It's like taxing Mexicans more money because they're Mexicans. If the American government did this--then your analogy would work (but the argument wouldn't, as the fact that other people commit certain actions has no baring on whether or not that action is morally right.)

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a minute.

First of all it is true that non-Muslims do pay the Jizya tax. Non-Muslims are not required to pay the Zakat which Muslims pay. In addition, the Jizya Tax ( which is roughly the same rate as the Zakat) comes with alot of benefits that are not available to Muslims. Non-Muslims are not required to join the Military and are exempt from the Jihad and the defense of the land they live. That obligation falls under Muslims. Also, the Jizya pays for many services that the Muslim ruler is expected to do for his non-Muslim subjects, number one obligation his duty to assist them in the building of their houses of worship and ETC.

Keep in mind that Muslims were practicing such libertarian principles at a time when the idea itself was not entirely put forth! Also keep in mind at that time, minority groups were mistreated greatly. They were forced to serve their king without gaining much benefits (if any). Islam eliminated those predatory practices and paved the way for how a diverse society should live. In my view, as I would rather pay the Jizya rather than be a Muslim and shoulder the burden of defending other groups who are exempt from defending the land while at the same time paying the Zakat on top!

Not a bad deal for a non-Muslim eh

[Wareer]

Klashnefolk, let me give a good example.


Some projects are indivisable. That means, you and I can't buy it like you can buy books, cars, and food, etc. Indivisiable projects also have free riding problems. An example of this is the spending of defense . No one can be excluded from Defense.

To be defended, there has to be an army that is supported by the people. Roads, ports and other projects require the intervention of government.


There are many types of Taxes that individuals living in the states pay. It is not only how much money you make.
You pay

Sales Tax

Excise Tax

Personal Tax

Property tax.

ETC.


Every candy you buy for your kid, you have to pay salex tax.

[KlashneFolk]

True Wareer

[Wareer]

Media plays with naive minds. Ibox is a victim of the western media.