"Even Jewish military advisors are helping us" Col

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Sadeboi
Doesn't look like.

Either Allah likes the Ethiopians more than you, or Allah can't do anything. Pick one.

[highclass]

[quote="Jeffrey Dahmer"]

High-class, Col. Barre Hiiraale has clearly said that HE is leading the troops and thus he is not under their protection.

Further, there is a valid Fiqhi opinion that the Muslim ruler may seek the help of Mushrikun against other Mushrikun to defeat them in case of necessity.

In fact, Imam Ibn Baz (RH) passed out this a similiar fatwa in the 90's by allowing the US troops on Muslim soil to combat the Mushrikun. The fatwa was Islamically correct but the Imam made an error in not carefully analysing the status-quo.

Moreover, it is completely unncessary to criticize the actions of Barre Hiiraale whilst he was the only one who made a counter-attack based on Muslim forces. It was the ICU who first invaded the peaceful Muslim city Kismayoo with ajnabi forces and then have the audacity to claim that Col. Barre Hiiraale is using the aid of the Mushrikun whilst they had Mushrikun and Khawarij forces in their ranks from the start. So Islamically, Col. Barre Hiiraale is correct in seeking the aid of the Mushrikun incase of necessity if he feels that the aggressors are using Kaffirun forces themselves.

The classical scholar, Imam Ibn Qudamah (RH), wrote a great detail about this.[/quote]

Barre Hiiraale said he would take their help which makes him one of them according to the Quran.

YOU ARE TURNING A BLIND EYE TO THE QURAN IN ORDER TO SAVE BARRE HIIRAALE

You are going against the QURAN, There are now excuses, What you just said is stupid and irrelevant

The verse is so clear
The Noble Qur'an: (Al-Ma'idah 5:51)
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as 'Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers etc.), they are but 'Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as 'Auliya' then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust)."

'Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers etc.),

They help him to fight dont they? in addtion to that They protect tfg dont they?

Allah says
The Qur'an: Al-Ma'idah 5:55
Verily, your Walî (Protector or Helper) is Allâh, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allâh in prayer).

Jews and Amhaaro are not included.

[quote]Muslim ruler may seek the help of Mushrikun against other Mushrikun[/quote]

ICU ARE NOT MUSHRIKH Unbelievable
mushrikun literally means, “those who take a partner [unto God],”

YOU KNOW YOU CANT GO AGAINST THAT VERSE IN THE QURAN. It's clear.

[Qaarxiye]

give it a rest highclass before we come Lascaanood.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

highclass, you can write in CAPS to emphasize your point but it will be seen as desperation on your part. The fact of the matter is, I have given you a Fiqhi ruling that is allowed in Islam but because you're a Jahil who keeps quoting ayat without knowing the tafsir behind it and keeps questioning the dalil behind the presented masa'il. Your cheap shot of putting words in my mouth is evident in your claim that I have said that the ICU are Mushrikun, rather I said, they employed Mushrikun (i.e. the foreigners and the Khawarjis) in their midst and were the first to use such foreigners. In fact, I was silent about your claim that Barre Hiiraale apostatised by using Mushrikun as a necessity and when I confronted you with the Fiqhi ruling, you decided to dodge the ruling and quote ayat.
Making a takfir which you are not qualified to do will only backfire you since the Nabi said that who accusess his brother of Kufr, it will go back to him. Imam Ibn Baz, the late Mufti of Saucdi made the exact same decision, would you claim that he was a non-Muslim too?

If you cannot respond to the evidence I have presented, then do not, otherwise you will only demonstrate your apparant ignorance in engaging in advanced Islamic discussions.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Highclass
Are Christian Eritreans included??? Because the ICU had no problem accepting help from the Christians of Eritrea. And Eritrea and Ethiopia are both roughly 45-50% Christian. That is, they are roughly equivelent.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

Who from UIC are mushrikuun? There's a lot of talk about eritreans but no one has ever seen them. It's strange how easily you can hide 2000 outsiders to one of the most homogenous nations on earth. They must have been hidden to the same place where weapons of mass destruction of Iraq are hidden. How can you claim something about other muslims without any proof? That is xaram. Only proof we have is UN-report that we can dismiss all together because of it's ridiculous claims of somalis fighting for Hizbullah and that eritreans have brought fighter planes to UIC in pieces and they were put together in Mugadishu. After we see evidence about eritreans we can talk about this point.

And then the next issue, caqiidah of UIC. From which source you found out they are khawaarij? They may be some individuals among them who have extreme ideologies but that doesn't change the aqiidah of the movement. And if you look at their opponents, they have have the scum of the earth fighting with them, from mushrikiin to murtaddiin and those mooryaans fighting under warlords. And actually those evil peole are vast majority of the coalition of xabashi-TFG-warlords and also many of their leaders.

[Salahuddiin]

And you can't call khawaarij a mushrik. They are two totally different things.

[highclass]

Jeffrey Dahmer

Well caps hasn't helped you directly replying to the comments I strongly emphasized

So far you have not commented directly on a single point I have made. From the whole beginning I told you not to come with excuses. And now you are telling us the ICU have employed Mushrikun? Who are they? Where are they from? And how do you know that they are Mushrikun?

You havenÂ’t present any evidence that go against the verse and the statement I made about Barre. You are making irrelevant excuses like they use mushrikun .You haven't even said Whether you can use Jews to fight ICU or not.

I have read/hear the tafsir of this aya so many times. I don't try to change the meaning of it or changing the context of the situation by saying "HE is leading the troops and thus he is not under their protection". The verse doesnÂ’t only emphasis on protection. It seems that you donÂ’t know the tafsiir and what you are saying backfires are yourself .Is funny how you are applying this situation to the aya but when I did you caused me not knowing the tasir.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Jeffrey

Who from UIC are mushrikuun?[/quote]

Salahudiin, EVEN if there are no Eritreans, the Khawarij who are labelled as Kaffirun by the past Culema is sufficient enough.

[quote]And then the next issue, caqiidah of UIC. From which source you found out they are khawaarij? They may be some individuals among them who have extreme ideologies but that doesn't change the aqiidah of the movement. And if you look at their opponents, they have have the scum of the earth fighting with them, from mushrikiin to murtaddiin and those mooryaans fighting under warlords. And actually those evil peole are vast majority of the coalition of xabashi-TFG-warlords and also many of their leaders.[/quote]

The Caqiidah of the Somali ICU members is actually the correct Caqidah but it the presence of the ajnabi Khawarij who have the deviant Caqidah and Manhaj.

The evidence is here:

In http://somalinet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80933& point 5 of invalid points, I have stated the ignorance and the dangerous methodology of the foreigners in the midst of the ICU militia. It has been confirmed in the latest news posted in the Somalinet News section. It writes:

"An ICU militia member taken prisoner this morning at the Dinsor front, named Aden Abdullahi Mohamed, gave detailed information with regards to their capture. He said that all the top officials of their unit were killed in the fighting. He said “No officials remained to command the battle and we therefore surrendered”. HE ADDED that “six foreigners have committed SUICIDE fearing being taken prisoner”.

There is a hadith reported in al-Bukhari collection that the Prophet (SCW) said:

"A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." Bukhari

Forget the movement's caqidah, the main point refers to that they collobarated with neo-Khawarij and that alone is blameworthy. If it was out of necessity, it is understandable but by attacking fellow Muslims with these thugs, it becomes beyond blameworthy DESPITE the fact that certain individuals amongst them possess the correct manhaj and Caqidah.

As for you labeling other Muslims as Murtad, I ask you, do you have the authority to do that or do you take your 'ilm from the takfiri "scholars" who advocate such concepts.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

highclass, this is one of the reasons why I try to refrain engaging in advanced Islamic discussions with the ignorants if they use fallacies at you. I have presented a mu'tamad position in Fiqh and you present me with your Jihadi influenced understanding of a certain ayah.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

First off, we don't know if this statement from TFG about captured soldiers and six foreign mercenaries killing themselves is true or not. These people are not trustworthy and you can't take testimony from them because of their proved evil-doings.

This hadiith you presented about the man who killed himself. He was member of army of Prophet (scws) in battle of Uhud (not sure about that though). So did this ideology of one man change the caqiidah of them all? I think you know the answer. We have to look at the caqiidah of organization and it's amiir.

This is very fragile claim when you compare who are their opponents working with.

About the murtad statement. I'm not an caalim and in no way I have authority to make fatwa about this, but according my limited knowledge and everything I've ever read there cannot be any justification islamically what TFG has done.

One more thing about the original topic. In Islam there isn't metaphors like this. For example if someone says jokingly he is yahuud or something else it means he is one of them until he repents.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Jeffrey

First off, we don't know if this statement from TFG about captured soldiers and six foreign mercenaries killing themselves is true or not. These people are not trustworthy and you can't take testimony from them because of their proved evil-doings. [/quote]

Salahuddin, last time I recall, Indacadde made a plea for the "Mujahidun" to join the ICU. Who do you think these "Mujahidun" are? The same ones who are using car-bombs and suicide-bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. The captured maxaabiis have testified to this and I am not going to dispute this fact even if it comes from a party that you oppose. The ICU have employed so many propagandic tactics than the TFG so what made you think the TFG is untrustworthy and the ICU is? Because they masqeruade with the name Islam? If so, then you have alot of things to learn. In fact, my view of the TFG is the same as the ICU, I only favour some invididuals in both parties.

[quote] This hadiith you presented about the man who killed himself. He was member of army of Prophet (scws) in battle of Uhud (not sure about that though). So did this ideology of one man change the caqiidah of them all? I think you know the answer. We have to look at the caqiidah of organization and it's amiir.[/quote]

Salahuddin, you did not grasp why I have quoted this hadith. The man was a Sahabi and he made a mistake that has costed him temporarial Hell-Fire. However, the Khawarij are a whole different story since they possess a different maddhab. The individuals who employ the Khawarij tactics in Iraq, Palestine, et al are the same ones that the past Culema have warned about. Who remembers the advices and fatwawa of the kibrar Culema in declaring Bin Laden and his supporters as Khawaraji and it is forbidden to collobrate with them. The mere fact that they have collobrated with the Khawaraji is blameworthy because how can some one with the correct cagidah collobrate with the Khawaraji. This is an error that they made which has costed them their objectives.



[quote]About the murtad statement. I'm not an caalim and in no way I have authority to make fatwa about this, but according my limited knowledge and everything I've ever read there cannot be any justification islamically what TFG has done.[/quote]

Then why on earth did you state that they are Murtadiin and then retract when confronted. It doesn't work that way. TFG has made alot of mistakes, and I condemn many of their decisions but I am not going to play issue statements that are reserved for those who are qualified. I have simply commented on highclass blameworthy takfir on Col. Barre Hiiraale by employing Mushrik to fight against other Kaffirun. This is a valid Fiqh ruling.

Let me ask you a question, do you consider Imam Ibn Baz (RH) a Murtad based on the fact that he issued a fatwa in accepting the aid of Mushrikun combatting other Mushrikun (i.e. Iraq) in the 90's? Is his ruling Islamically correct or not. Because the ignorants such as Bin Laden et al declared takfir on the Sheikh.

[quote]One more thing about the original topic. In Islam there isn't metaphors like this. For example if someone says jokingly he is yahuud or something else it means he is one of them until he repents.[/quote]

Salahuddiin, now you're just nit-picking walaal, seriously. In fact, that nit-picking is based on erroneous statement. Where on earth did he say that someone is Jew or not. He stated that they have the aid of Mushrikun to combat other Kaffirun (i.e. the Khawarij) out of necessity even if they are Jewish advisors because what is the difference between a Christian and a Jew? They both are Mushrikun.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

[quote]Indacadde made a plea for the "Mujahidun" to join the ICU. Who do you think these "Mujahidun" are? The same ones who are using car-bombs and suicide-bombings[/quote]

So when you hear a beautiful word describing a best and highest believer, a Mujaahid, you automatically think of those who go to the market and blow themselves up? I don't. There are lot of real mujaahidiin around the world and it was said to us there won't ever cease to be a righteous party fighting for truth. Nothing indicates that Indhacadde meant suicide bombers so this is just a useless speculation. I support him in this invitation.

[quote]so what made you think the TFG is untrustworthy and the ICU is[/quote]

I don't trust a man who is ready to fight and die for secularism and brings kuffar to fight against muslim. It was a thousand times smaller deeds that prevented sahaba to accept testimony for fellow people.

[quote]the Khawarij are a whole different story since they possess a different maddhab[/quote]

You said it yourself that UIC caqiidah is correct and that is what matters, not individuals among them. I remember when in Mugadishu some people were shot because they were watching football. UIC said that they captured those who did it and will punish them. You can't ever prevent deviant individuals to join your organization, except if you know their twisted madhab and still invite them willingly. In any war there will be genuine mujaahiduun but also in their ranks can be khawaarij and qabiilist but the danbi is on them, not organization because you can't see person's heart when he joins.

[quote]Let me ask you a question, do you consider Imam Ibn Baz (RH) a Murtad based on the fact that he issued a fatwa in accepting the aid of Mushrikun combatting other Mushrikun (i.e. Iraq) in the 90's? Is his ruling Islamically correct or not. Because the ignorants such as Bin Laden et al declared takfir on the Sheikh. [/quote]

Allah yarxamahu. You can't compare these two things because Iraq's leader and main principles were far away from Islam that time and that was one of the main reasons for his fatwa, because he saw the whole army as a kaafir army because of it's leaders. Situation today in Somalia is 100% the opposite, UIC and it's caqiidah is good but there might be some individuals in lower ranks who might have deviant ideologies. That's why you can't say UIC is a kaafir army.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

You also said that I cannot say the opposite side is murtaddiin because I'm not qualificated to make statement like this and you are right about that. I didn't mean them all but I said some among them. But same time you can say UIC is khawaarij army based on TFG presented news about few individuals and we don't even know if it's true or not.

If you can make that statement based on that, if we follow your logic can we also claim that everyone of TFG and also your hero Barre Hiiraale is a murtad?

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]J
So when you hear a beautiful word describing a best and highest believer, a Mujaahid, you automatically think of those who go to the market and blow themselves up? I don't. There are lot of real mujaahidiin around the world and it was said to us there won't ever cease to be a righteous party fighting for truth. Nothing indicates that Indhacadde meant suicide bombers so this is just a useless speculation. I support him in this invitation. [/quote]

Have you ever engaged in a debate because frankly, I resent your presumptions. Indacadde has invited foreign fighters and they have accepted his call and through their actions we can safely presume that some of their adhere to the Khawarji maddhab (see evidence on the previous post).

[quote] I don't trust a man who is ready to fight and die for secularism and brings kuffar to fight against muslim. It was a thousand times smaller deeds that prevented sahaba to accept testimony for fellow people. [/quote]

And again, you have failed to provide the issue that I have really asked and instead have offered your unqualified opinion that I do not seek.

Is Col. Barre Hiiraale fighting for secularism or not? Wasn't Col. Barre Hiiraale the one who inititated the start of an Islamic Court 3 years ago and ruled Kismayoo with the Law of Islam or have you forgotten about that?

[quote] You said it yourself that UIC caqiidah is correct and that is what matters, not individuals among them. I remember when in Mugadishu some people were shot because they were watching football. UIC said that they captured those who did it and will punish them. You can't ever prevent deviant individuals to join your organization, except if you know their twisted madhab and still invite them willingly. In any war there will be genuine mujaahiduun but also in their ranks can be khawaarij and qabiilist but the danbi is on them, not organization because you can't see person's heart when he joins. [/quote]

Salahuddin, how many times do you want to repeat the point so that I will receive an adequate reply. Yes, I have mentioned that the ICU have the correct Cagidah in establishing the Shariah (except some minor issues that I am willing to overlook) but collobrating with the neo-Khawarij, the issue of Cagidah BECOMES VOID since the Khawarij are deemed as Kaffirun by the consesus of the scholars and we cannot collobrate with them except for a valid execuse.

In fact, the Pro-ICU site Garoweonline stated:

Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys, the Islamists’ spiritual head, denied any link to the suicide bombers, but told Garowe Online that he “welcomes” the development.

http://www.garoweonline.com/stories/pub ... 6269.shtml

You're trying to defend a position that has no foundation and has never been advocated by some of the officials such as Indacadde and Aweys. Aweys himself has welcomed "the development" of using car-bombs and suicide-bombings in citizen-populated areas. I welcome individuals such as Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Axmed and Sheikh Abu Mansuur but since the movement's policies have been taken over since the start of Kismayoo, I am not going to say that just because certain indiviiduals are in the organisation, I am going to support. Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Axmed is in fact angered at how the organisation has been hijacked and this is evident in his words.

[quote] Allah yarxamahu. You can't compare these two things because Iraq's leader and main principles were far away from Islam that time and that was one of the main reasons for his fatwa, because he saw the whole army as a kaafir army because of it's leaders. Situation today in Somalia is 100% the opposite, UIC and it's caqiidah is good but there might be some individuals in lower ranks who might have deviant ideologies. That's why you can't say UIC is a kaafir army.[/quote]

Guess what Salahuddin, the Imam erred in issueing that fatwa but it is Islamically allowed and he will be rewarded once for his itjihad. You're not paying attention to what I have already mentioned. Highclass stated that one never collobrate with the Mushrikun and I have provided a Fiqhi masa'il that states that it is allowed to seek the aid of the Mushrikun if the Ruler is combatting against Kaffirun.

According to some individuals, the whole issue boggles down to black-and-white and this is the mindset of the Jihadis who favour anyone who masqerautes with the Islam name. I believe, as I have mentioned in a different post, that the Jihad is islamically valid provided that they do not use the support of the Kaffirun but since they did, I am not going to argue and try to justify something that has been seen as abhorent in the Islamic Law. Some of the Culema in Xamar went even further by saying this is not Jihad.