Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is in the UK..

[+chilli]

Salaam.

’There's one widely heard hadiith that is usually used by sufis that after a fight Prophet (scws) said that now we came from a small jihad to great jihad (jihad against oneself) but this hadiith is daciif because the chain of narrators is weak.’

--{oh yeah, that’s news to me, I’ll get back to you on that one}


’ I disagree with 9/11. Although the military and economical centers of the enemy fighting against Islam are 100% legal targets I don't agree the way it was done. I had to google those statements from Hamza Yusuf because it was long time ago and I don't remember the exact place where I saw them but I found a site with those quotes and much more about him (I didn't check out this site except this part talking about Hamza Yusuf so I don't know what else is on it):

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_ ... /index.htm’

--{Am not so sure about that site, but I enjoyed reading E.Yusef’s article, its good to know that critical thinking is still alive and beautiful in our weird times.
But I didn’t get anything convincing or evidence that Hamza Yusef was doing something wrong. He said a lot of things and made a lot suggestions but nothing sold and not one strand of solid evidence of whatever he was accusing the Shayakh of.
The only thing I understood that he thought was wrong or ‘wrong way to introduce new Muslims to Islam’ was the form of dikir practised in the Shaykh’s institute.
There is nothing wrong with swaying when you’re in a state of Remembrance and reciting the Quran or doing tisbix.

A man lays claim to reverence
While his limbs are shaking;
His ecstasy turns to movements,
And sometimes to leaps.
Everyone behaves like this
When in frivolous pleasure,
So the opposites of seriousness
And play are the same!
By God! Had reverence
Truly dwelt in his heart,
Peace would have shown upon him
And humility to his Lord.
Tears would have flowed
From his fear of his Lord,
And he would have obeyed
The rules of true courtesy.
Such people’s works are pious
Abundant in courtesy.
But you found easier that which is easier
And you found unpleasant that which is harder,
So you left it, and followed them
In that which is easier,
Vast is the gulf which lies
Between truth and falsehood.

--Al-Habib Abu Bakr al-Aydarus}



-
"Now spiritual jihad is permanent and an obligation. ‘on the authority of Anas b. Malik: the messenger of God said ‘Remembrance of God in the morning and in the evening is better than breaking swords in the path of God and donating ones wealth in abundance!’"
-Walaal could you show me from where to find this hadiith, because I've never heard of it and when I tried to search for it I only found it from sufi sites without mentioning the source of this hadiith.
--{it’s a weak tradition recorded by al-Iraqi and Abd-Allahb. Umar, Al-Ghazail used it in his Invocations and Supplications book. Here is a sound narration related by al-Tirmizi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim ‘On the authority of Abu Darda’: The Messenger of God said. ‘Shall I not inform you of your greatest and most purest of actions in the eyes of your Maker, as well as highest of ranks afforded to you and (that which is better) for you than expending silver and gold in charity and even better for you than engaging your enemy, smiting their necks and having your necks smitten by them? They replied, ‘and what may that be, O Messenger of God? He thereby said, ‘The remembrance of God’,
-bother hadiths and many more imply that Jihad of the naf is greater than the defensive.

--‘On the authority of Abu Hurairah who said: The Messenger of God said, ‘The unique have gone forth! The unique have gone forth!’ it was said to him, ‘And who are they O Messenger of God? He thereby said, ‘Those who are addicted to the remembrance of God. Remembrance of God effaces their sins such they arrive in the day of Judgement, light handed’ (Muslim)
Here is one that echoes one of the hadiths you posted above-‘A nomad once asked the Messenger of God (sws),’which action is best’? and he replied, ‘to leave this life with your tongue still moist from Remembrance of God’ (Abu Nu’ayam, Hilyat al-Awliya)

Remembrance is the cornerstone of the Path, the key to realization, the weapon of the seeker..’Remember Me,and I shall remember you’ (Quran, 2:152) & ‘It is binding Us to give victory to the believers’ (Quran 30:47)

‘God’s protection renders needless
Suits of amour and tall walls.’

You must admit without inner jihad and spiritual strive defensive jihad is meaningless. We are promised victory and protection and in the hereafter much more, but our goal should not be tied around this world, we have to struggle with our ego and suppress our desire for this world, and concentrate in building our relationship with Allah that we remember and submit without realization, the unseen world should be more visible then the seen world, and only then will we die for just cause.
Your use of ‘defence’ rather then ‘fight’ or ‘warfare jihad’ acknowledges the point I made earlier that it is only jihad only if its action taken for ‘defence’. (wajib kifaya)

I wanted to bring back a point I made in my first post, what do you think of the fact that most scholars say that true defensive jihad is something that must be decided and declared by the ‘legitimate’ leader of a Muslim country, and never may individuals or groups wage their own private war and call it jihad and impose it upon Muslims as some kind of obligation or religious duty?
Something we obviously lack today…but wide area of discourse. }

“Do you really see peace now in the muslim world? You can first start from your own country and then find about the situations in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya etc etc and every day around the world the hostility is just growing. How many muslim prisoners do the kuffar hold and how much they oppress muslims today? Do you really think there is wordwide peace now among the muslims? Can you show me even one period of time from last centuries where there wasn't need for defensive jihad because of the attacks by kuffar in at least one part of a muslim world?”
--{Peace no; I see confusion, chaos, ignorance, and many misguided Muslims.
You say we are in this state because we have left jihad, waa runta, Muslims have become nationalists and have come to love the world, they are sick inwardly, they have forgotten what striving for the Path means and are mostly really comfortable. But the jihad you talking about is physical jihad, that’s the last thing Muslims need, spiritual Jihad is the one that is deserted, our egos are our masters it seems. In ever country you have mentioned Muslims have done wrong to Muslims, call one side hypocrites or another mujahdiins, its come down to the fact its Muslim against Muslim. ‘The Messenger said ‘Anyone who assists in the killing of a Muslim, even with so much as half a word, will meet God with the phrase ‘despairs God’s mercy’ written between his eyes’ and in last sermon the Prophet (sws) warned of that fate more than twice. What is evident today from Somalia, Sudan, Sahara to the Middle east? Whos oil and money is assisting the War against Iraq and help built the wall in Palestine and Sub-S? whos ports and land resources is American using to bomb Muslims in Afghanistan, and what is the war in Kashmir really about? Fighting for nationhood same with Chechnya?? (Chechnya is being oppressed by Russia right, who is one of it many allies in the Middle East? Hasbullah?)
Where is Islam in any of these conflicts? Oh yeah ‘Allahu Akba’ to the media...maybe a little bite exaggerating there.
Muslims are the sole course of wars and horrors in the Muslim world, we are our very own worst enemy, the ‘kufirs’ are just throwing salt on open wounds.}



- ‘Physical jihad is not something about duniya but for akhira because it is getting oneself killed because of Allah and it's the greatest deed and getting killed in the path of Allah is called shahada (one reason) because man already testified his devotion for Allah by sacrificing his own body and because of that he won't be asked the 3 questions in grave and he will wait in janna until the judgement day and he won't feel fear in Yawmal Qiyaama. I don't see how this is bound to duniya and desires.’
--{I was referring to the modern day obsession of ‘political jihad’, men have fought wars and killed and died for lands and the duniya before, adding jihad to it isn’t going to make anymore righteous. Its seems everything is economic and political based these days. God deliver us from these times.}

--‘Ok we agree, defensive/physical jihad is an obligation in the face of oppression and tyranny.
‘Man has nothing save what he has strived for’ (53:39)

Ma'sallam

[Salahuddiin]

Salaam walaal

First off let me clarify that offensive jihad is obligatory for muslims if there's a power and means to do it. It is for the sake of erasing the shirk and raising the word of Allah to be the highest. Here are the words of our dear Prophet (scws):

"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." (Bukhari, Muslim)

In no way that means anything but actual fighting. And here's a proof how asahaba understood this:

"Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked, “Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs. We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, sucking on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.” (Bukhari)

So I think that wraps it up.


"But I didn’t get anything convincing or evidence that Hamza Yusef was doing something wrong. He said a lot of things and made a lot suggestions but nothing sold and not one strand of solid evidence of whatever he was accusing the Shayakh of."

- Did you check rest of the articles from Hamza Yusuf's interviews or only the one by Yusuf Estes?

"There is nothing wrong with swaying when you’re in a state of Remembrance and reciting the Quran or doing tisbix."

- Could you provide a proof to this from sunna, sufi poetry is not an accepted proof in our religion.

"it’s a weak tradition recorded by al-Iraqi and Abd-Allahb. Umar, Al-Ghazail used it in his Invocations and Supplications book."

- Walaal don't quote weak hadiith without mentioning that it's weak in the same sentence. Weak ahadiith have unreliable people in their chain of narrators and they can't be used as evidence.

About those ahadiith you quoted about remembrance of Allah. I don't deny it and the high status of it. Sufis read these ahadiith and make those only to their religion and skip the rest. Islam is a complete way of life and it covers every aspect of life from eating food to politics and wallahi Prophet (scws) and his companions didn't just sit in home making dhikr but they were also politicians and soldiers the same time and all of this wasn't for the sake of duniya but only for the sake of Allah. Muslim can't take something and leave the rest. For example if a person prays but don't pay zakah or make sawm what kind of religion is that?


"You must admit without inner jihad and spiritual strive defensive jihad is meaningless. We are promised victory and protection and in the hereafter much more, but our goal should not be tied around this world, we have to struggle with our ego and suppress our desire for this world, and concentrate in building our relationship with Allah that we remember and submit without realization, the unseen world should be more visible then the seen world, and only then will we die for just cause."

- Yes it's true. Like I said jihadun nafs and jihad against Sheytaan is obligatory to muslims all the time. That fact doesn't take anything out from jihad with sword. By the way there is no better way to build our relationship with Allah than fighting in His path. Subhaan Allah if only the sleep of mujahid is better than continuous praying and fasting of person not fighting, then what about the prayer and fast of a mujahid? It has also been a widely agreed opinion during the whole history of Islam to send questions to culamaa who are fighting in jihad rather than take the opinions of culamaa who are at home because the ones who fight for Allah are considered to be closer to Allah and His help than the rest of the people.


"Your use of ‘defence’ rather then ‘fight’ or ‘warfare jihad’ acknowledges the point I made earlier that it is only jihad only if its action taken for ‘defence’. (wajib kifaya)"

Jihad is offensive or defensive and both of those were practised by Prophet (scws) whose sunna we follow. I also gave so much authentic evidence to back my claim up so that can't be refuted. The difference is that offensive jihad is not obligatory if there are no means to do it and it can't be done without the amir but defensive jihad is always obligatory when the situation falls on muslims no matter what the means are.


"I wanted to bring back a point I made in my first post, what do you think of the fact that most scholars say that true defensive jihad is something that must be decided and declared by the ‘legitimate’ leader of a Muslim country, and never may individuals or groups wage their own private war and call it jihad and impose it upon Muslims as some kind of obligation or religious duty?"

- I have never in my life seen anyone to say that defensive jihad needs amir before this, of course muslims need to organize and appoint amir to lead them in a case of attack but this is not the prequisite before they fight because jihad becomes individual duty to everyone. Every scholar whose books I have studied are saying that defensive jihad becomes obligatory in those reasons I stated before and neglecting fighting leads to severe punishment from Allah and there are lot of ahadiith proving that. There's no evidence from Qur'an or sunna claiming that defensive jihad has certain preconditions before it can be practised. Not being prepared is not an excuse when enemies attack muslims, but it adds more fault to muslims because Allah and His Messenger (scws) ordered us to prepare and be ready to fight always. 'Uqbah bin Aamir narrated: I heard the Messenger of Allah on the pulpit say: ““And prepare against them whatever you are able of power” and power is the ability to shoot, power is the ability to shoot, power is the ability to shoot” (Muslim)

Prophet (scws) also said: "You will conquer many lands and you will be safe and secure. If that happens don’t fail to play with your arrows! (So even when muslims live in peace they should always keep up military training)" (Muslim)

and there is a great blessing in target shooting:

"Between the two targets is a garden of Paradise (companions used to train shooting that they would make two targets on opposite sides and shoot one of them, run there and pick the arrow and then shoot the other and so on)”

Learning shooting and then abandoning it is a major sin according to scholars because of this hadiith:

Faqeem al Lakhmi told Uqbah bin Amer: “You are running between these two targets and you are at this old age!” Uqbah said: “If it wasn’t for some words I heard from the Messenger of Allah I wouldn’t have gone through this” The narrator asked what those words were, he said: “Whoever learns target shooting and then abandons it is not one of us – or he said, “has committed a sin” (Muslim)

It is actually scholarly agreed on that when kuffar attack muslims it becomes waajib for everyone in the area to fight and it becomes collective duty on the rest of muslims and if they don't send enough men and muslims can't defend theirselves properly then everyone is a sinner, but if there are enough men fighting then rest are freed from it.
About the highest jihad. It is agreed upon among the scholars of salafus saalih that highest jihad is physical fighting. Evidence for this are many authentic ahadiith stating that highest jihad is fighting and dying like I already posted before. Here's another sahiih hadiith:

A woman once came to the Prophet ( ??? ???? ???? ???? ) and asked: “O Rasulullaah! My husband has departed for war and usually if he prays I follow him in his Salat and I follow him in all his acts of worship. Because of that inform me of an act which can equal his until he returns.” He ( ??? ???? ???? ???? ) said to her: “Are you able to stand without sitting, perform Saum without breaking it and Dhikr until your husband returns?” She replied: “I am not strong enough, o Rasulullaah.” So he (??? ???? ???? ???? ) said to her: “By Allah in whose hand I am, even if you were strong enough it would surely not attain one tenth of your husbands deeds.” (Al-Hakim, sahiih)

Now every hadiith that states that spiritual jihad is higher than physical one is daciif. Also when we think logically, which one is really harder: waking up to pray fajr on time and keeping away from fitna, or leaving your family and comfortable home behind and swapping it on hunger and sleeping on the dirt and going out to fight knowing that you will get killed or injured and what would be bigger fitna than being in middle of a fight where you see your friends blowing up to pieces and there's bullets and explosions everywhere? It needs very firm hard and full trust in Allah to hold yourself together and not giving up and turning your back. It also needs really strong inner jihad against whisperings of Sheytaan and own desires. I really believe that the ideology of "physical jihad is small jihad" has only roots in excusing oneself because of cowardliness.

Here's a great hadiith that can be used against practise of sufis:

Abu Hurairah narrated: “A companion passed by a valley wherein was a well with refreshing water which surprised him. After he said: 'Supposing I removed myself from the company of people and I lived in this place (for the purpose of 'ibaadah) but I couldn't do that until I received permission from Rasulullaah (??? ???? ???? ???? ). Would that be the most eminent thing to do towards Rasulullaah (??? ???? ???? ???? )?' The Prophet (??? ???? ???? ???? ) said: 'Don't do that, because the existence of one from amongst you Fi Sabilillaah is more eminent than Salat made at home for 70 years. Don't you want to receive forgiveness from Allah and for Him to allow you into Jannah? Ughzuu Fii Sabiilillaah (wage war in the way of Allah), whoever fights in the way of Allah for as long as it takes a camel to recover from one milking to the next, surely Jannah is obligatory for him.” (Al-Tirmidhi classed it as hasan but Baihaqi and Al-Hakim classed it as sahiih)



"You say we are in this state because we have left jihad, waa runta, Muslims have become nationalists and have come to love the world, they are sick inwardly, they have forgotten what striving for the Path means and are mostly really comfortable. But the jihad you talking about is physical jihad, that’s the last thing Muslims need, spiritual Jihad is the one that is deserted"

- The words from Prophet (scws) and his companions are about jihad by sword and there's scholarly consensus about this and also we can see from the circumstances of when these ahadiith were spoken that they are related to fighting. Here's again another example:

Allah says in Qur'an:

“And spend in the Cause of Allaah and do not throw yourselves into destruction, and do good. Truly, Allaah loves Al-Muhsinoon (the good-doers)” (2:195)

And here's an example how asahaba understood this:

Aslam Abu ‘Imraan said: We were in the city of the Byzantines (i.e., Constantinople) and a great troop of the Byzantines came out to us. One of the Muslim men attacked the Byzantine ranks until he penetrated them, and the people shouted and said “Subhaan-Allaah, he has thrown himself into destruction.” Abu Ayyoob al-Ansaari stood up and said: “O people, you misinterpret this verse in this way; rather this verse was revealed concerning us, the Ansaar. When Allaah caused Islam to prevail and its supporters increased, we said to one another in secret, without speaking to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘Our wealth is neglected. Allaah has caused Islam to prevail and its supporters have increased. Why don’t we stay with our property and improve it?’ Then Allaah revealed Qur’aan to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), refuting what we had said: “And spend in the Cause of Allaah (i.e. Jihad of all kinds) and do not throw yourselves into destruction” [al-Baqarah 2:195]. This destruction was our staying with our property to improve it, and neglecting to fight (in jihad). Abu Ayyoob never stopped fighting for the sake of Allaah until he was buried in Constantinople. (Al-Tirmidhi, sahiih)

Also here's a clear hadiith about neglecting fighting:

“Whoever does not fight or does not equip a warrior or support the family of a warrior in his absence, Allaah will strike him with calamity before the Day of Resurrection.” (Abu Dawud, sahiih)

"Whosoever dies without participating in an expedition (jihad) nor having the intention to do so, dies on a branch of hypocrisy." (Muslim)


And don't forget the hadiith I mentioned earlier about comparing leaving jihad to leaving religion plus many more I posted earlier.


"What is evident today from Somalia, Sudan, Sahara to the Middle east? Whos oil and money is assisting the War against Iraq and help built the wall in Palestine and Sub-S? whos ports and land resources is American using to bomb Muslims in Afghanistan, and what is the war in Kashmir really about? Fighting for nationhood same with Chechnya?? (Chechnya is being oppressed by Russia right, who is one of it many allies in the Middle East? Hasbullah?) Where is Islam in any of these conflicts? Oh yeah ‘Allahu Akba’ to the media...maybe a little bite exaggerating there."

- I know that majority of today's conflicts include much different goals but how that changes anything in individual stage? If kuffar attack and some fight because of their qabiil and some fight because they want money that doesn't excuse other people in the area. If the condition of jihad (kuffar attacking muslims) is filled then even if everybody else fight for wrong reasons that doesn't take away or change your responsibility. Allah gives to everyone according to their niyah. If some muslims help kuffar in their war then these people are munaafiqiin who also need to be fought against.

"Muslims are the sole course of wars and horrors in the Muslim world, we are our very own worst enemy, the ‘kufirs’ are just throwing salt on open wounds.}"

- Yes it's true. There were lot of munaafiqiin even in the time of Prophet (scws) so what about today? If munaafiqiin help kuffar against muslims that doesn't take away responsibility to fight both of them (kuffar and munaafiqiin).

"I was referring to the modern day obsession of ‘political jihad’, men have fought wars and killed and died for lands and the duniya before, adding jihad to it isn’t going to make anymore righteous. Its seems everything is economic and political based these days. God deliver us from these times."

- Even in the wars fought by Prophet (scws) there were people fighting for spoils of war or for qabiil. That only affects themself, not other people. Every people get rewarded according to their intention. Of course offensive jihad must be waged only because of dacwa and raising Allah's words but if there's people in the army fighting for something else that only affects those individuals.

Even if there were no textual proofs (which there are plenty) we would also know the truth by only watching what Prophet (scws) and his companions did and how they lived. They remembered Allah, they made inner jihad and they did lot of fighting also. They understood the religion better and more deeper than any of us and they lived by it and they lived by the sword and there's no denying this fact. It's very easy to prove these sufi shaykhs and modernists wrong just by looking into a siira of Prophet (scws) and companions. We follow their understanding of Qur'an and teachings of Prophet (scws). Because of them now there's not a place in a world that there's no muslims. If they'd only sat at home making cibaada, Islam would have died long time ago. They lived Islam and practised it in spiritual life as well as political life. You can't limit Islam only to spirituality because there are overwhelming evidence against that.

To the end I'd like to post few examples about the understanding of salafus saalih:

Allah says in Qur'an:

“Go forth, whether light of heavy, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the cause of Allah. That is better for you, if you only knew”


It is narrated that Abu Ayub al Ansari took a rest from jihad for a year. He then recited this ayah and said, “I do not find for myself an excuse in this ayah” so he resumed his jihad.

Al Zuhri states that Ibn Al Musayab joined the army when he had already lost one of his eyes due to old age. He was told you are ill, he said, “Astaqfirullah (May Allah forgive me) Allah says the light and the heavy. If I am incapable of fighting at least I will increase the number of the army and would guard your luggage”

Anas bin Malik said that Abu Talhah recited al Tawbah and passed by this verse “Go forth light or heavy” and said I see that Allah is calling upon me whether I am young or old. So he told his sons to prepare him for combat. They said you have already fought with Rasulullah until he died and then with Abu Bakr until he died and then with Umar. So now let us fight on your behalf. He said, “Prepare me for combat” and they did. He went on an expedition in the sea and died. They didn’t find an island to burry him until seven days latter and his body never changed. (Al-Hakim, sahiih)

[1nemansquad]

Chilli, this Hamza dude is a sell-out. I wouldn't waste anytime on him if i was you.

A great Scholar with an ounce of Imaan wouldn't go the White House and have dinner with a man who has soo many Muslim blood on his hands.

Nothing justifies this. In Islam you can't be friends with the enemy of your brother.

[+chilli]

Ok 1man, thanks for the advice waalal, but I judge a shaykh by his knowledge and actions, not who he has dinner with...

[1nemansquad]

Its good that you judge someone by their cilm and actions.

Meeting Bush in his Kufr House was one of his actions. If that is alright with you then by all means SURE.

'actions'

[Koronto91]

Masha Allah! Sh. Hamza Yusuf is just a wonderful lecturer. I had the luck of attending one of his lectures in Atlanta, GA back in 2003 during a fundraiser for masjid Al-Farooq. Some people say he is a Sufi lecturer, I say take what benefits you & leave the rest up to Allah to judge.

[Koronto91]

[quote="1nemansquad"]Chilli, this Hamza dude is a sell-out. I wouldn't waste anytime on him if i was you.

A great Scholar with an ounce of Imaan wouldn't go the White House and have dinner with a man who has soo many Muslim blood on his hands.

Nothing justifies this. In Islam you can't be friends with the enemy of your brother.[/quote]

This is called diplomacy. Rather than declaring Jihad on everyone, it is wiser to know your worth/strenght and act accordingly. A good example can be found in the hadeeths, during the Prophet's time (saw) the Muslims were greatly outnumbered, the Prophet (saw) was a smart man and did many things that outraged his companions including the treaty of Hudaybiya, whereby the Muslims were allowed to perform Hajj ONLY once every 6 years and the Muslims had to sign this treaty. In life you must loose some to gain more. Being stubborn is what has cost Muslims a lot in the past century alone.

[*Arabman]

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf strikes me as an apologist scholar.

[Koronto91]

[quote="*Arabman"]Shaykh Hamza Yusuf strikes me as an apologist scholar.[/quote]

I don't think he really has much choice, you act tough and you become sidelined or worse you get called a TERRORIST! As a religious scholar it is important to act wisely and always think twice before you just blabber out loudly.

[FAH1223]

Koronto is spittin truth

[*Arabman]

[I don't think he really has much choice, you act tough and you become sidelined or worse you get called a TERRORIST! As a religious scholar it is important to act wisely and always think twice before you just blabber out loudly.]

He has a choice; he can move to Qatar and become a respected scholar, a la Shaykh Qaradawi.

[Koronto91]

[quote="*Arabman"]He has a choice; he can move to Qatar and become a respected scholar, a la Shaykh Qaradawi.[/quote]

LOL@Qatar, the same Qatar that lets U.S. planes bomb Iraq from inside Qatar? Anyway, I am surprised you don't consider Sh. Qardawi a sell-out as well. I have seen a lot of people say nasty things about Sh. Qardawi including the Salaful-Jadiid who call him the "Howling Dog". Nobody is perfect, let us take that which benefits us and leave their actions for God to judge.

[*Arabman]

[Anyway, I am surprised you don't consider Sh. Qardawi a sell-out as well.]

Well, he's considered a radical and fundamentalist by the West. Plus, he was never invited by the White House or 10 Downing.

[+chilli]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Salaam walaal

First off let me clarify that offensive jihad is obligatory for muslims if there's a power and means to do it. It is for the sake of erasing the shirk and raising the word of Allah to be the highest. Here are the words of our dear Prophet (scws):

"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." (Bukhari, Muslim)

In no way that means anything but actual fighting. And here's a proof how asahaba understood this:

"Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked, “Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs. We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, **** on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.” (Bukhari)

So I think that wraps it up.


"But I didn’t get anything convincing or evidence that Hamza Yusef was doing something wrong. He said a lot of things and made a lot suggestions but nothing sold and not one strand of solid evidence of whatever he was accusing the Shayakh of."

- Did you check rest of the articles from Hamza Yusuf's interviews or only the one by Yusuf Estes?

"There is nothing wrong with swaying when you’re in a state of Remembrance and reciting the Quran or doing tisbix."

- Could you provide a proof to this from sunna, sufi poetry is not an accepted proof in our religion.

"it’s a weak tradition recorded by al-Iraqi and Abd-Allahb. Umar, Al-Ghazail used it in his Invocations and Supplications book."

- Walaal don't quote weak hadiith without mentioning that it's weak in the same sentence. Weak ahadiith have unreliable people in their chain of narrators and they can't be used as evidence.

About those ahadiith you quoted about remembrance of Allah. I don't deny it and the high status of it. Sufis read these ahadiith and make those only to their religion and skip the rest. Islam is a complete way of life and it covers every aspect of life from eating food to politics and wallahi Prophet (scws) and his companions didn't just sit in home making dhikr but they were also politicians and soldiers the same time and all of this wasn't for the sake of duniya but only for the sake of Allah. Muslim can't take something and leave the rest. For example if a person prays but don't pay zakah or make sawm what kind of religion is that?


"You must admit without inner jihad and spiritual strive defensive jihad is meaningless. We are promised victory and protection and in the hereafter much more, but our goal should not be tied around this world, we have to struggle with our ego and suppress our desire for this world, and concentrate in building our relationship with Allah that we remember and submit without realization, the unseen world should be more visible then the seen world, and only then will we die for just cause."

- Yes it's true. Like I said jihadun nafs and jihad against Sheytaan is obligatory to muslims all the time. That fact doesn't take anything out from jihad with sword. By the way there is no better way to build our relationship with Allah than fighting in His path. Subhaan Allah if only the sleep of mujahid is better than continuous praying and fasting of person not fighting, then what about the prayer and fast of a mujahid? It has also been a widely agreed opinion during the whole history of Islam to send questions to culamaa who are fighting in jihad rather than take the opinions of culamaa who are at home because the ones who fight for Allah are considered to be closer to Allah and His help than the rest of the people.


"Your use of ‘defence’ rather then ‘fight’ or ‘warfare jihad’ acknowledges the point I made earlier that it is only jihad only if its action taken for ‘defence’. (wajib kifaya)"

Jihad is offensive or defensive and both of those were practised by Prophet (scws) whose sunna we follow. I also gave so much authentic evidence to back my claim up so that can't be refuted. The difference is that offensive jihad is not obligatory if there are no means to do it and it can't be done without the amir but defensive jihad is always obligatory when the situation falls on muslims no matter what the means are.


"I wanted to bring back a point I made in my first post, what do you think of the fact that most scholars say that true defensive jihad is something that must be decided and declared by the ‘legitimate’ leader of a Muslim country, and never may individuals or groups wage their own private war and call it jihad and impose it upon Muslims as some kind of obligation or religious duty?"

- I have never in my life seen anyone to say that defensive jihad needs amir before this, of course muslims need to organize and appoint amir to lead them in a case of attack but this is not the prequisite before they fight because jihad becomes individual duty to everyone. Every scholar whose books I have studied are saying that defensive jihad becomes obligatory in those reasons I stated before and neglecting fighting leads to severe punishment from Allah and there are lot of ahadiith proving that. There's no evidence from Qur'an or sunna claiming that defensive jihad has certain preconditions before it can be practised. Not being prepared is not an excuse when enemies attack muslims, but it adds more fault to muslims because Allah and His Messenger (scws) ordered us to prepare and be ready to fight always. 'Uqbah bin Aamir narrated: I heard the Messenger of Allah on the pulpit say: ““And prepare against them whatever you are able of power” and power is the ability to shoot, power is the ability to shoot, power is the ability to shoot” (Muslim)

Prophet (scws) also said: "You will conquer many lands and you will be safe and secure. If that happens don’t fail to play with your arrows! (So even when muslims live in peace they should always keep up military training)" (Muslim)

and there is a great blessing in target shooting:

"Between the two targets is a garden of Paradise (companions used to train shooting that they would make two targets on opposite sides and shoot one of them, run there and pick the arrow and then shoot the other and so on)”

Learning shooting and then abandoning it is a major sin according to scholars because of this hadiith:

Faqeem al Lakhmi told Uqbah bin Amer: “You are running between these two targets and you are at this old age!” Uqbah said: “If it wasn’t for some words I heard from the Messenger of Allah I wouldn’t have gone through this” The narrator asked what those words were, he said: “Whoever learns target shooting and then abandons it is not one of us – or he said, “has committed a sin” (Muslim)

It is actually scholarly agreed on that when kuffar attack muslims it becomes waajib for everyone in the area to fight and it becomes collective duty on the rest of muslims and if they don't send enough men and muslims can't defend theirselves properly then everyone is a sinner, but if there are enough men fighting then rest are freed from it.
About the highest jihad. It is agreed upon among the scholars of salafus saalih that highest jihad is physical fighting. Evidence for this are many authentic ahadiith stating that highest jihad is fighting and dying like I already posted before. Here's another sahiih hadiith:

A woman once came to the Prophet ( ??? ???? ???? ???? ) and asked: “O Rasulullaah! My husband has departed for war and usually if he prays I follow him in his Salat and I follow him in all his acts of worship. Because of that inform me of an act which can equal his until he returns.” He ( ??? ???? ???? ???? ) said to her: “Are you able to stand without sitting, perform Saum without breaking it and Dhikr until your husband returns?” She replied: “I am not strong enough, o Rasulullaah.” So he (??? ???? ???? ???? ) said to her: “By Allah in whose hand I am, even if you were strong enough it would surely not attain one tenth of your husbands deeds.” (Al-Hakim, sahiih)

Now every hadiith that states that spiritual jihad is higher than physical one is daciif. Also when we think logically, which one is really harder: waking up to pray fajr on time and keeping away from fitna, or leaving your family and comfortable home behind and swapping it on hunger and sleeping on the dirt and going out to fight knowing that you will get killed or injured and what would be bigger fitna than being in middle of a fight where you see your friends blowing up to pieces and there's bullets and explosions everywhere? It needs very firm hard and full trust in Allah to hold yourself together and not giving up and turning your back. It also needs really strong inner jihad against whisperings of Sheytaan and own desires. I really believe that the ideology of "physical jihad is small jihad" has only roots in excusing oneself because of cowardliness.

Here's a great hadiith that can be used against practise of sufis:

Abu Hurairah narrated: “A companion passed by a valley wherein was a well with refreshing water which surprised him. After he said: 'Supposing I removed myself from the company of people and I lived in this place (for the purpose of 'ibaadah) but I couldn't do that until I received permission from Rasulullaah (??? ???? ???? ???? ). Would that be the most eminent thing to do towards Rasulullaah (??? ???? ???? ???? )?' The Prophet (??? ???? ???? ???? ) said: 'Don't do that, because the existence of one from amongst you Fi Sabilillaah is more eminent than Salat made at home for 70 years. Don't you want to receive forgiveness from Allah and for Him to allow you into Jannah? Ughzuu Fii Sabiilillaah (wage war in the way of Allah), whoever fights in the way of Allah for as long as it takes a camel to recover from one milking to the next, surely Jannah is obligatory for him.” (Al-Tirmidhi classed it as hasan but Baihaqi and Al-Hakim classed it as sahiih)



"You say we are in this state because we have left jihad, waa runta, Muslims have become nationalists and have come to love the world, they are sick inwardly, they have forgotten what striving for the Path means and are mostly really comfortable. But the jihad you talking about is physical jihad, that’s the last thing Muslims need, spiritual Jihad is the one that is deserted"

- The words from Prophet (scws) and his companions are about jihad by sword and there's scholarly consensus about this and also we can see from the circumstances of when these ahadiith were spoken that they are related to fighting. Here's again another example:

Allah says in Qur'an:

“And spend in the Cause of Allaah and do not throw yourselves into destruction, and do good. Truly, Allaah loves Al-Muhsinoon (the good-doers)” (2:195)

And here's an example how asahaba understood this:

Aslam Abu ‘Imraan said: We were in the city of the Byzantines (i.e., Constantinople) and a great troop of the Byzantines came out to us. One of the Muslim men attacked the Byzantine ranks until he penetrated them, and the people shouted and said “Subhaan-Allaah, he has thrown himself into destruction.” Abu Ayyoob al-Ansaari stood up and said: “O people, you misinterpret this verse in this way; rather this verse was revealed concerning us, the Ansaar. When Allaah caused Islam to prevail and its supporters increased, we said to one another in secret, without speaking to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘Our wealth is neglected. Allaah has caused Islam to prevail and its supporters have increased. Why don’t we stay with our property and improve it?’ Then Allaah revealed Qur’aan to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), refuting what we had said: “And spend in the Cause of Allaah (i.e. Jihad of all kinds) and do not throw yourselves into destruction” [al-Baqarah 2:195]. This destruction was our staying with our property to improve it, and neglecting to fight (in jihad). Abu Ayyoob never stopped fighting for the sake of Allaah until he was buried in Constantinople. (Al-Tirmidhi, sahiih)

Also here's a clear hadiith about neglecting fighting:

“Whoever does not fight or does not equip a warrior or support the family of a warrior in his absence, Allaah will strike him with calamity before the Day of Resurrection.” (Abu Dawud, sahiih)

"Whosoever dies without participating in an expedition (jihad) nor having the intention to do so, dies on a branch of hypocrisy." (Muslim)


And don't forget the hadiith I mentioned earlier about comparing leaving jihad to leaving religion plus many more I posted earlier.


"What is evident today from Somalia, Sudan, Sahara to the Middle east? Whos oil and money is assisting the War against Iraq and help built the wall in Palestine and Sub-S? whos ports and land resources is American using to bomb Muslims in Afghanistan, and what is the war in Kashmir really about? Fighting for nationhood same with Chechnya?? (Chechnya is being oppressed by Russia right, who is one of it many allies in the Middle East? Hasbullah?) Where is Islam in any of these conflicts? Oh yeah ‘Allahu Akba’ to the media...maybe a little bite exaggerating there."

- I know that majority of today's conflicts include much different goals but how that changes anything in individual stage? If kuffar attack and some fight because of their qabiil and some fight because they want money that doesn't excuse other people in the area. If the condition of jihad (kuffar attacking muslims) is filled then even if everybody else fight for wrong reasons that doesn't take away or change your responsibility. Allah gives to everyone according to their niyah. If some muslims help kuffar in their war then these people are munaafiqiin who also need to be fought against.

"Muslims are the sole course of wars and horrors in the Muslim world, we are our very own worst enemy, the ‘kufirs’ are just throwing salt on open wounds.}"

- Yes it's true. There were lot of munaafiqiin even in the time of Prophet (scws) so what about today? If munaafiqiin help kuffar against muslims that doesn't take away responsibility to fight both of them (kuffar and munaafiqiin).

"I was referring to the modern day obsession of ‘political jihad’, men have fought wars and killed and died for lands and the duniya before, adding jihad to it isn’t going to make anymore righteous. Its seems everything is economic and political based these days. God deliver us from these times."

- Even in the wars fought by Prophet (scws) there were people fighting for spoils of war or for qabiil. That only affects themself, not other people. Every people get rewarded according to their intention. Of course offensive jihad must be waged only because of dacwa and raising Allah's words but if there's people in the army fighting for something else that only affects those individuals.

Even if there were no textual proofs (which there are plenty) we would also know the truth by only watching what Prophet (scws) and his companions did and how they lived. They remembered Allah, they made inner jihad and they did lot of fighting also. They understood the religion better and more deeper than any of us and they lived by it and they lived by the sword and there's no denying this fact. It's very easy to prove these sufi shaykhs and modernists wrong just by looking into a siira of Prophet (scws) and companions. We follow their understanding of Qur'an and teachings of Prophet (scws). Because of them now there's not a place in a world that there's no muslims. If they'd only sat at home making cibaada, Islam would have died long time ago. They lived Islam and practised it in spiritual life as well as political life. You can't limit Islam only to spirituality because there are overwhelming evidence against that.

To the end I'd like to post few examples about the understanding of salafus saalih:

Allah says in Qur'an:

“Go forth, whether light of heavy, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the cause of Allah. That is better for you, if you only knew”


It is narrated that Abu Ayub al Ansari took a rest from jihad for a year. He then recited this ayah and said, “I do not find for myself an excuse in this ayah” so he resumed his jihad.

Al Zuhri states that Ibn Al Musayab joined the army when he had already lost one of his eyes due to old age. He was told you are ill, he said, “Astaqfirullah (May Allah forgive me) Allah says the light and the heavy. If I am incapable of fighting at least I will increase the number of the army and would guard your luggage”

Anas bin Malik said that Abu Talhah recited al Tawbah and passed by this verse “Go forth light or heavy” and said I see that Allah is calling upon me whether I am young or old. So he told his sons to prepare him for combat. They said you have already fought with Rasulullah until he died and then with Abu Bakr until he died and then with Umar. So now let us fight on your behalf. He said, “Prepare me for combat” and they did. He went on an expedition in the sea and died. They didn’t find an island to burry him until seven days latter and his body never changed. (Al-Hakim, sahiih)[/quote]


Sorry waalal, i'v been busy I'll get back to you later, plus i got some notes from that lesson with Shaykh Hamza, I'll type them up..

Arabman, we need Shaykh here, in our enviroment, experiencing our problems, the last thing we need is a Shaykh preaching from another world altogether, (Qatar)

[*Arabman]

[Arabman, we need Shaykh here, in our enviroment, experiencing our problems, the last thing we need is a Shaykh preaching from another world altogether, (Qatar)]

You mean we need a Shaykh (Hamza Yusuf) who preaches to us from Hayward (California)?