The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

[James Dahl]

Greetins Mujaahid Grant!

The assertion that oromo and somali language derive from one language 2000 thousand years ago (ie separated only 2000 years ago)
seems erronous to me.
Oromo is my mother tongue and I used to speak somali and I still have a good command in somali.True there are similarities between these language.but these r not of the type u r presenting. In my opinion the two language were highly influneced by another language that is now extinguished.Or at one moment in history these two peoples were brought to live in very close manner probably in one administrative structure
and heavily influenced each other

Let me give u an example :
in somali ear =dhag in oromo ear=gurra.
very different isnt it? however in oromo litsen is dhageyi ie it uses the radical dhag.
The only explanation i got is the extinguished language I was referring to probably used the noun dhag and the verb dhageey.
and the oromo speakers kept only the verb and somalis eventually kept the verb and the noun!

These two languages structure is ,despite a high level of shared vocabularies, r very different...in linguistics these r called sprachbund!
Their relation is best compared to the french and english language relation...no one will consider stating that english is a latin language although a good half of its words derive from french.
My opinion is that wat u guys call KUSHITIC is just a sprachbund!

Cheers

B.

Bareento: 2000 years ago, Romanian, Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian were all the same language. Romanian is further from French than Oromo is from Somali. Languages can change very fast!

[Xildiiid]

The majority of linguistic scholars in the field of Afro-Asiatic languages agree with the notion that Proto Cushitic is indigenous to the Horn of Africa and that it originated in the southern hills of the Red Sea (modern day Eritrea, my link even mentions Eritrea by name). Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa since 6000 B.C which is 4500 years before the Ethio-Semitic language family was created by Cushitic people who shifted to Semitic (the proof is the Cushitic substratum in all Ethio-Semitic languages including Ge'ez).

No, Cushitic languages did not originate in Sudan, only Beja migrated to northern Sudan and southern Egypt right after it diverged from Proto Cushitic. It's the oldest and most complex branch of Cushitic.

You're still confusing the terms Cushitic and Kush. Two seperate terms with minimal connection. The Kingdom of Kush spoke Meroitic which is an unclassified language believed to be Nilo-Saharan or a hybrid between Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic while the Kerma Kingdom that preceded the Kingdom of Kush spoke a Cushitic language which is an Afro-Asiatic language just like the Ancient Egyptian language.

You're also regurgitating 'Proto Sam' which is part of the defunct Omo Tana hypothesis. It's proven that the proposed Omo Tana languages do not share a recent Proto language that would seperate them from other lowland east Cushitic languages.

You're also unable or unwilling to understand that the Somali language is older than Samaale (a clan progenitor).

Who are the Kenyans? I gave you a quote and the name of the source (written by linguists and archaeobotanists ) that clearly states that the migration of the Cushitic people started from the southern hills of the Red Sea to the Highlands of Ethiopia where the Proto East-South Cushitic people diverged from their Agaw relatives and migrated south. The Proto East Cushitic people then diverged from the Proto South Cushitic people in central Ethiopia. The Proto South Cushitic people continued their journey southwards while their Eastern cousins began their migration further east. By 4000 B.C northern Kenya was inhabited by southern Cushites and only thousands of years later did Eastern Cushites migrate south and occupy the former territory of their 'extinct' relatives.

[Grant]

Grant where are you getting these figures for a 14th century Muzaffar dynasty? The Muzaffar came after the Portuguese.

James,

You are probably thinking of the coins.

https://janakesho1.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/142/

"The oldest pieces date back to 1323-24 and on the front bear the name of Abu Bakr ibn Muhaamad, the then Sultan of Mogadishu."

The timing wasn't exactly clear.

"The Sultanate of Mogadishu developed with the immigration of Emozeidi Arabs, a community whose earliest presence dates back to the 9th or 10th century. This evolved into the Muzaffar dynasty, a joint Somali-Arab federation of rulers, and Mogadishu became closely linked with the powerful Somali Ajuran Sultanate."

[James Dahl]

That wasn't the Muzaffars, probably one of the Xalawaan or Zawzaan sultans.

Exact chronology isn't clear but:

???-696 : Himyar
696-917 : Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate
917-1270? : Merchant Republic ("Shirazi" period)
1270-13?? : Sultan Abu Bakr ibn Fakhruddin (First Sultan)
????
????-???? : Muxamed al-Xalwaani replaces Fakhruddin's dynasy
????
????-1506 : Zawzaan dynasty replaces Xalwaan dynasty
1506-1665: Portuguese domination of the Benadir, finally defeated by a massive coalition of Ajuuraan, Turkish and Arabian naval power.
1665-1674: Sultan Osman Haji Ali al-Muzaffar, a Yemeni with modern artillery assumes command of Mogadishu following the Portuguese defeat
1674-1828: Darandolle (Abgaal) kill al-Muzaffar and seize control of Mogadishu, establishing themselves at Shingani. They would be defeated by an Omani fleet under Hamed ibn Ahmed in 1828 and forced to accept Omani overlordship, who formally annex Banadir in 1863 and install a governor in 1872.
1828-1893: Oman sells the protectorate to Italy in 1893
1893-1941: Italian rule
1941-1960: British/UN rule
1960-Present: Somalia

[sahal80]

That wasn't the Muzaffars, probably one of the Xalawaan or Zawzaan sultans.

Exact chronology isn't clear but:

???-696 : Himyar
696-917 : Ummayad/Abbasid Caliphate
917-1270? : Merchant Republic ("Shirazi" period)
1270-13?? : Sultan Abu Bakr ibn Fakhruddin (First Sultan)
????
????-???? : Muxamed al-Xalwaani replaces Fakhruddin's dynasy
????
????-1506 : Zawzaan dynasty replaces Xalwaan dynasty
1506-1665: Portuguese domination of the Benadir, finally defeated by a massive coalition of Ajuuraan, Turkish and Arabian naval power.
1665-1674: Sultan Osman Haji Ali al-Muzaffar, a Yemeni with modern artillery assumes command of Mogadishu following the Portuguese defeat
1674-1828: Darandolle (Abgaal) kill al-Muzaffar and seize control of Mogadishu, establishing themselves at Shingani. They would be defeated by an Omani fleet under Hamed ibn Ahmed in 1828 and forced to accept Omani overlordship, who formally annex Banadir in 1863 and install a governor in 1872.
1828-1893: Oman sells the protectorate to Italy in 1893
1893-1941: Italian rule
1941-1960: British/UN rule
1960-Present: Somalia

James, portguese had never controlled mogadishu. They bombed it from their warships in the 15 century on their way to oman and failed to take it

Muzafar were from Oman, judging by their history in Oman they arrived mogadishu by the 15 century

Arabic link is somali they don't know the era

Oman had just the governor of mogadishu not ex banadir wich they put under the sultan of galadi-the general governor- The power has shifted from migadishu to galadi

This omani man was in charge of mogadishu when the Italians arrived

Italians kept mogadishu for themselves and appointed a silcis for warsheekh

https://mobile.twitter.com/6f05a8ceb944 ... 9021350912
وفي القرن الرابع عشر جاءت أسرة (المظفر) وهي من قبيلة (بني نبهان) العربية، الذين كانوا يحكمون في (عُمَان) وعاصمتها (مَسْقَط) وقد أصابها الاضمحلال والتفكك، وذلك عندما قامت بعض القبائل العربية الأخرى بطردها عن حكم (مسقط) فأدَّى ذلك إلى فرار سليمان بن المظفر إلى ساحل شرقي إفريقية، حيث أسس إمارة عربية في (بيت Pate) عام 601هـ (1203م)، واستطاعت هذه الإمارة أن تبسط سيطرتها على (مقديشو) حوالي 740هـ (1331م)

رابط الموضوع: http://www.alukah.net/culture/0/338/#ixzz4HSMzNzzv
Googlee translation of the Arabic text
In the fourteenth century family ( Muzaffar ) was one of the tribe ( Bani Nabhan ) Arab , who ruled in the (Oman) and its capital, Muscat has been hit by the decay and disintegration, and that's when the other Arab tribes to expel all rule ( Muscat ) This led to Suleiman bin Muzaffar flee to the east coast of Africa , where he founded an Arab emirate in the ( House Pate ) in 601 AH ( 1203 AD) , and the emirate has been able to simplify the control of the ( Mogadishu ) about 740 AH ( 1331 AD)


http://www.warmoley.com/view.php?id=45

[gurey25]

Grant i do not understand why you think reer shabeele are not bantu?
have you met some that look somali?

reer shabeele are not pre-cushites, they dont look somali, they look like tanzanians
which they are.
A pre-cushite population will have different looks, closer to Omo people or khoisans, or even Fur people of darfur, who have a mixed nilotic/cushitic look.

but reer shabeele look like your average tanzanian or congolese.
very clear bantu features.

[Grant]

Gurey,

I am relying in part on the notion that the Bantu expansion never reached Somalia. The Book of the Zanj states explicitly that the Kasur tribes were aboriginal.

This was written in 2014 by Ali Mumin Ahad, who teaches at La Trobe University over with you there in Australia. His e-mail address is there:

https://www.academia.edu/9529053/The_Ex ... l_Identity

"Before the incursions of the Hamitic Galla and Somali, this region, according to Lewis, was occupied by a mixed pre-Hamitic population-the Zengi of medieval Arab geographers-who seem to have comprised two distinct populations. Sedentary agricultural tribes, settled in the inter-riverine area survive today in Shidle, Kabole, Reer ‘Ise, Makanne, and Shabelle peoples on the Shabelle River. As Lewis (1961:22) writes:
To the same group belong the Eelaay of Baidoa in the hinterland, and the Tunni of Brava District. The other section of the pre-Hamitic population consisted of Bushmanlike hunters and gatherers, and along the rivers of fishermen, of whom contemporary representatives are the WaRibi, WaBooni of Jubaland and southern Somalia, and the Eyle of Bur Hacaba.

The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna, who are the aboriginal populations of the middle and upper Shabelle River plain, did not speak Bantu language at any known historical time (Cerulli, 1926; Cassanelli, 1982; Menkhaus, 2003). They speak the Somali language and use a considerable number of Galla-Oromo idioms. The Shidle, the Shabelle, and the Makanna are a sedentary and surely autochthonous pre-Cushitic population, which implies, more importantly, that they are the Sab in the meaning of the term suggested by Ferrandi, which is that they are indigenous to the Horn of Africa. They maintained considerable cohesion and were powerful enough to remain politically autonomous from—and minimize predatory raids by—surrounding pastoralists (Menkhaus, 2010)."

[James Dahl]

Muzaffar is clearly described as "from Yemen" in the primary sources. You guys are trying to make a link between the Nabhani dynasty of Pate and the Muzaffar of Mogadishu, but no such link exists, it's a coincidence. Muzaffar is a relatively common laqab and not an actual name, Muzaffar just means "the Victorious".

Also Grant, Lewis is not the greatest source, I've found a lot of problems with his stuff in the past, he makes connections based on hunches and similarity of names a lot of the time that are incorrect.

Also Sahal80 the Portuguese didn't build a fort in Mogadishu but they burned the town, Mogadishu wasn't a capital at the time. The big Portuguese fort was at Baraawe. Mogadishu was the first to break away from Portuguese rule, but they weren't finally expelled from Baraawe until the 1700s.

[Grant]

James,

I have also found problems with Lewis, but I don't think this is one of them. There is too much other corroboration.

I thought I read somewhere that the Portuguese built a tower in north Mogasdishu?

[James Dahl]

James,

I have also found problems with Lewis, but I don't think this is one of them. There is too much other corroboration.

I thought I read somewhere that the Portuguese built a tower in north Mogasdishu?

They did yeah, but a tower doensn't really count as a fort, the fort was at Baraawe with the main Portuguese garrison

[Grant]

Gurey wrote:

"Grant i do not understand why you think reer shabeele are not bantu?
have you met some that look somali?"

Why would you expect indigenous populations to look like Samaales?

Here's de Waal:

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpub ... minorities

"A second minority category includes the diverse group of farmers who are not ethnic Somalis, living in much the same areas as the Rahanweyn and Digil. They include remnants of indigenous peoples, some of them originally speakers of the Cushitic languages (such as the Shebelle and Gabaweyn) and some Bantu. These peoples are mostly culturally assimilated to the Rahanweyn. The other groups are descendants of former slaves who established enclaves in the 19th century, chiefly in the Lower Shebelle and Lower Jubba valleys. Originally having retreated to the tsetse-infested woodlands on the riverbanks where no pastoralists ventured, they are often collectively known as WaGosha, "forest people". Many of these communities retain Bantu languages."

Here's Besteman

https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeac ... f-somalia/

"Jubba (and Shabelle) River Valley settlements were created and populated by sedentary farmers of various and diverse ancestries, including populations who predated Somali arrivals, people who call themselves Reer Shabelle who moved into the valleys from Somalia-Ethiopia border region and are affiliated with the Ajuraan sub-clan, slaves, and Boran/Warday. The label ‘jareer’, which refers to certain racialized physical features, distinguishes those with non-Somali ancestry from those with more Somali ancestry, identified as ‘jileec’."

As far as I am aware, there were no Bantus ever in the Somali/Ethiopian border area.

[Xildiiid]

^
Nonsense..

If these groups are Pre Cushites then surely there would be a trace of their previous language but there's none.

Dahalo speakers retained the click sounds, that confirmes that they adopted a Cushitic language and a trace of their previous language is still present through the Khoisan substratum. Another example is the Ethio-Semitic languages and their Cushitic substratum indicating the shift that occurred and lead to the creation of Ethio-Semitic languages by Cushitic people.

[Grant]

Hildiid,

I suppose you also claim the Isaaq and Darood are Arabian tribes and that the Samaales originated north and migrated south?

Seriously, it's time you caught up with DNA and recent historiography.

Here is the best description of the Kasur that we have:

Sheikh Abu Bakr S. Muhiyiddiin:

https://sites.google.com/site/historyof ... f-the-zanj

"The coast of the sea (of India), the western part of it on the Equator and the Giuba touches the people called Kasur in Arabic language and called locally Wa-Nyika. In that region there was no other population that this; and after twelve days travelling there is Ethiopia. The Kasur possessed; cattle, goats, sheep and chickens. They cultivated the maize, and the bean and the millet, and they did not have other fruit than wild ones."

"As far as the Kasur, there are twelve tribes - I. Mdigu; 2. Msamba; 3. Mlungu; 4. Msifi. And these (four) are those that escaped before from Sungwaya, when they saw that the Galla persecuted them with every species of torments: they escaped for fear of those. Then there are: 5. Mgiryama; 6. Msuni; 7. Mkamba; 8. Mribi; 9. Mgibana; 10. Mtaita; 11. Mkadiyaru; 12. Mdara. And these all entirety live on the rivers of the Giuba rivers and around them and higher up, from the day the Highest God created them."

These were the people of the plain until the Gaal Madow wars. You continue to confuse Cushitic with Samaale, which, as an identity, is less than 1000 years old.

[James Dahl]

There's no way of knowing where the clicks in Dahalo come from, linking that with Khoisan languages is just a guess, based on the fact that they also have clicks, but who knows what languages in the past used to have clicks.

[gurey25]

grant all those names sound bantu.
and isnt shungawayo a mythical state/kingdom in the jubbas that were the northernmost extent of the bantu migrations?

that would make them newcomers to the region.