A Live vid of a dying USC kid.

[Somaliweyn]

GB,

Hawiye masses are the relevant masses. If there are Benadir Tigre Lovers, then this group is clearly not the Hawiye masses we're talking about. Do not mention the name Mudulood again, Benadir Tigre Lovers and Mudulood have nothing in common.

It is an open secret that Southwestern people are rejoicing the killings of Mogadishu civilians, ofcourse there are exceptions within this group. People who do not allow their clan emotions to overshadow their morality.

Lugh Ganane,

Already explained that. The Barre regime turned the state institution into a vehicle to enrich his own group and also other groups which were mainly Darod. That combined with the crimes the Red Berets committed against Mogadishu civilians, plus the indiscriminate shelling of sections of the capital, became an explosive mixture. Ofcourse, Somalis who are living in a Pastoral environment know how to deal with these kind of inter-tribal animosity. Which explains why some groups which were associated with the Barre regime were persecuted while others could live peacefully. And don't emotionalize the events, as I said earlier, nobody went after every Darod cuz otherwise there wouldn't be a safe passage towards South (Kismaanyo).

Things got serieusly out of control when Barre took advantage of these revenge killings by turning the whole thing into Hawiye vs Darod. If u ask me, the reason why he shelled parts of the capital, and released his Red Berets on poor Hawiye civilians in Mogadishu was a calculated effort to create real animosity between Hawiye and Darod citizens of Mogadishu so he later could turn it into Darod vs Hawiye. Ofcourse one error in his calculation: Hawiye is no pushover in war as shown by his failed attempts to recapture the capital under the disguise of Daarodnimo.

[Gedo_Boy]

Somaliweyn,

That is the view that you WANT to have. That Southwestern tribes are rejoicing at what is happening in Xamar.
You feel that you must believe that to continue to justify your own hate towards Southwestern clans.

Trust me publicly AND privately, the Xamar fighting was perpetuated by the animosity of inter-Hawiye clans. If you talked about Northeastern clans too, that would have been something.

But you still suffer from BarrePhobia syndrome and including Southwestern tribes in your debates about Xamar violence is just a knee-jerk reaction. You're still blaming Southwestern tribes 16+ years onwards for blunder after blunder.

Wasn't it Abgaal officials/politicians and even their civilians who were saying PUBLICLY this was their time to avenge Habar Gidir's aggressions during their inter-Hawiye wars?

Why did you conveniently leave that out?

Compared to Salad Jeele, Barre Hiiraale didn't even take part in the Xamar shellings/attacks and even refused to go the city and authorize the shellings...........there were plenty of Hawiyes who were willing to do that, so why talk about Southwestern tribes.


And explain to me why I sent more money for the Xamar barakac then I ever sent to Gedo, and I send regularly? This was part of Southwestern animosity right?

[Somaliweyn]

''Most Somalis have fond and nostalgic memories of "Booli Qaran" compared to now,

These are ignorant Somalis, who do not look at things rationaly, who let their emotions lead them to wherever the wind goes. The ones who are rationally thinking yet think this way do it for one reason: They were living la vida loca during the 21 years of Barre....now they are peripheral in Somali politics and economy



Besides the anarchy and lawlessness, which basically Hawiye people have suffered much from, Somalia is doing economically and socially much better than the reactionary 21 years. Politically Somalia failed because basically Hawiye failed.


Lets just see what happenes after 1991 Revolution:

- The state apparatus was smashed to pieces. So we became basically a collapsed state with paper-governments. This seems bad but lets ponder about the benefits this had on Somalia and Somalis.

Just ponder about these benefits of 1991 Revolution: These are all supported claims by International organizations, case in point is the last World Bank report. And yes, they are benefits of 1991 Revolution as these things manifest themselves the best in what other place than Mogadishu: the seat of the Revolution.


- Our economy has coped with statelessness, and even expanded and transformed itself from basically a pastoral economy to a commercial economy. Our neighbouring countries haven't achieved this rapid economic transformation.
- The entrepeneurial spirit of Somalis which was oppressed so many years was unleashed after 1991. Somalis are now very active economically within the country and abroad.
-We have become self-reliant (ironnically this is what Barre regime tried but failed in). From been the highest per capita recipients of Aid pre-1991, we became practically self-reliant since this AID dissapeared with the collapsed state, except for some humanitarian handouts.
-Education wise, we are doing much better, every small village or city has nowadays its primary and secondary schools, every major city has its primary to University.
-Our communication and business infrastructres are very efficient, as last World Bank report showed.
-Private sector is booming and very dynamic, this during anarchy and lawlessness. So imagine if there was some law and order in Mogadishu.
-Adult literacy in Somalia is at 81 per cent. The averages for the Horn and West Africa are, 35 per cent and 49 per cent respectively. Again see world bank report by Tatiana Nenova and Tim Harford. This is much more succesfull then the wax bar mise baro campaign of Barre.

- Somalia and Somalis are now much more connected to the world than before, ofcourse a byproduct of globalisation, but we do it at least better than other Africans.
-Not to speak about the freedom of speech and thought. Somalis now can discuss freely everything they want, quarrel about who can be the mayor of some tuulo or who not .

The only thing I hate the USC is for not been aware of the fact that 26 Jan 1991 was a Revolution which needed a well-organized party to lead it along good lines, so Somalis can truely enjoy its fruits. Instead they thought it was another African case of coup, where another person replaces the current one (TPLF style, which kept peace but continued its reactionary African path of development)

[Somaliweyn]

GD,

I base my statement on the utterings of Lugh, Sadaam Marriixman, Nasteexo etc.

I have no hate towards Southwestern people, only to Barre loyalists.

Also I find it really amusing and frustrating how Southwestern people when they fail to make sound arguments resort to putting words into my mouth.

'' You're still blaming Southwestern tribes 16+ years onwards for blunder after blunder.'' When did I said this?

I blame everyone according to his deeds. Barre was responsible for 21 till he died in Lagos.

[wadaniweyn1]

gacan ku dhiigle siyaad bare's loyalist

[Gedo_Boy]

"I base my statement on the utterings of Lugh, Sadaam Marriixman, Nasteexo etc."

DO YOU KNOW HOW OLD THESE PEOPLE ARE???? Do you know this is an online forum?

"now they are peripheral in Somali politics and economy"

There is no Somali political system to speak of or be proud of. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking there is anything even worthy of controlling.

As for the benefits of the '91 Revolution........in addition to the hundreds of thousands of Somalis who were killed, millions fled the country and spread all over the world as refugees.

Somalis now rely on remittance of the diaspora and no significant diaspora existed during the time before '91. The current economy wasn't built based on planning or good governance of the '91 "Revolution"........it was actually a side effect or an unintended consequence.

In fact, the so-called '91 Revolution only served to dismantle the infrastructure of the capital and destroy the small but functioning industries of the South.

[wadaniweyn1]

Somalis now rely on remittance of the diaspora and no significant diaspora existed during the time before '91. The current economy wasn't built based on planning or good governance of the '91 "Revolution"........it was actually a side effect or an unintended consequence.




no actually it was intended consequence by the snm usc mujahadeen . the plan was to send as many somalis as possible to the out side world to rev up our economy and i think we did a pretty good job of that

[Gedo_Boy]

Diaspora remittance typically dries up after the 1st or 2nd generation so that is generally not a good plan to build an economy in the long-term.

That's a short-term plan. When you have kids grow up outside of Somalia sooner or later they don't relate or identify w/ their people back home and they just assimilate.

[Somaliweyn]

GB,

Well, young Kids are the most honest ones. They say what their parents/family discuss or say behind close doors without going around the bush. This combined with the tendency of Online anonymity thus saying what one really feals without consequences makes it reasonable to assume it. So yes Lug, Sadam, Nasteexo etc are representative Besides, in every Somali cafe, Southwestern people are not openly supporting the Tigre occupation, but they are sympathetic to the Tigre crimes against Mogadishu people and even dare to say: what comes around goes around.

About the many deads, displaced and other unfortunate drama, every Revolution has this element. An journey of survival of the masses in a new status-quo, with the old order been smashed to pieces is a main characteristic of a Revolution.


About remitancces, yes they played a key role but how do you explain other countries which knew this kind of money transfer for decades yet are not entrepeneurial active as Somalis, or have created a dynamic private sector?

There is a free market been developed in Somalia. Capitalism in its early roots, when this economic transformation succeeds and a political conscious group arrives in Somalia then in a short period of years the rest of Africa will take its inspiration from Somalia.

[wadaniweyn1]

[quote="Gedo_Boy"]Diaspora remittance typically dries up after the 1st or 2nd generation so that is generally not a good plan to build an economy in the long-term.

That's a short-term plan. When you have kids grow up outside of Somalia sooner or later they don't relate or identify w/ their people back home and they just assimilate.[/quote]

sad but true


try ur very best that ur kids ama decendants don't become like dat .i am gonna try everything humanly possible 4 my kids and there kids to know who they r and where they came from

[ilyas66]

somali wayn
bro the probalem in somalia is yaung huto like somaliwayn
if you knew your position in somalia ,all this wouldnot happened.
at least your old folks ware smart then you ,they know how far they could go.
after 17 years of chaos ang kiling and kufsi ,wat have you acheived,
now look wat happaning hammr, huto on hoto. kiling your own kind acheives nothing
you can run but you cant hide.
ssdf ,snm. usc.spm and leter snf,intaas oo jabahd ah oo mid walba qabiil salka ku haysa.
hadii aan been la isku sheegeen oo si daacad ah loo hadlayo waanu taageersneen
oo waxwalba ay u bahdaan ayaan ku garab siinaynay dhaqaalo iyo cudud milatariba
amaba hadii ay noqon laheed in ay soo laayaan qolo ama qabiil kale oo somalinimo iyi diin ay wadagan. sida aad la so cotaana saldhigoodu waxuu ahaa itobiya oo laga maamulayay
laguna dumayay qarankii somaliya.
anigu ma garanayo maanta in qabiilada qaarkood ay ka soo horjestaan itobiya qabilana ay tageeraan

[Gedo_Boy]

"About the many deads, displaced and other unfortunate drama, every Revolution has this element. An journey of survival of the masses in a new status-quo, with the old order been smashed to pieces is a main characteristic of a Revolution."

By your definition, Americans would consider the Iraqi War a success - because the "old order has been smashed to pieces".....that is not the main characteristic of a revolution. A Revolution usually brings about a favorable substitution. People don't talk about Negative Revolutions........

2 a : a sudden, radical, or complete change
b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed
c : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation


"About remitancces, yes they played a key role but how do you explain other countries which knew this kind of money transfer for decades yet are not entrepeneurial active as Somalis, or have created a dynamic private sector?"

While I am happy at the strides of Somalis, let's not exaggerate their entrepreneurial successes. There is no infrastructure in the country to speak of and the country exports nothing and imports everything from clothes to food to qaat. Millions of diaspora have been sending money to their loved ones, and a few businessman have been importing food/qaat and basic needs into the country and a few have made money that way.

The xawaalas have been so successful due to the sheer explosion of the diaspora population escaping a Civil War and many other diaspora populations came a little more gradually. You might see restaurants and small shops, but they STILL only cater to Somalis only. So Somali entrepreneurs have still only managed to take money from their own communities and establish businesses catering to their own communities.


Most other countries have at least basic industries in their countries. Ethiopia has basic industries, functioning government infrastructure, they even export food overseas and they export Qaat to Somalia. Their agriculture exports/industry are worth at least 4-5 billion annually.

Somalia proper has none of that......we don't even have the expertise to run our ports properly. Even if we did, there isn't transportation infrastructure or even basic safety/security to transport inland to other countries like Ethiopia.

All Somali entrepreneurship thus far only has in mind taking money from other Somalis which means they don't have either the confidence/expertise/know-how to become global entrepreneurs. That means Somalis have to evolve past basic shops and import/export.

So far Somalia's entrepreneurs have only been able to import things into Somalia and sell it to poor people who rely on handouts from their diaspora relatives. How much money is that market worth? World Bank estimates MAX at $1 billion.

Ethiopia has individuals in their diaspora who are billionaires:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7977901482

[Luq_Ganane]

Any revenue generated from the import of Qat, expired medicine, contaminated food, weapons should be negligible when it comes to calculating Somalia's economic "boom" over the past 17 years.

[SummerRain]

I cant believe this sick thread is still alive.

I wont even bother reading it anymore.

[Somaliweyn]

GB,

Its about from what angle you look at things. Iraq is a different case, the Americans have ousted Saddam and basically occupied the country from that moment. This is imperialistic war, not a revolutionairy war

In Somalia, Somalis themselves ousted an oppressive Dictator, and from that moment on are coping with life in a new status quo. It was a sudden and radical break with the past. It has transformed the whole society, economy, and politics (negatively). Post-1991 had fundamental changes in Somalia. It reminds me of the Chinese Revolution, where the emporer's administration was defeated and Chinese had to find new ways of administering the country. Ofcourse as soon as the central power dissapeared, warlords assumed power and cravted their own territories. Regional states intervened, Imperialist states tried to divide the Chinese cake, Japan invaded the country etc. Drama which ended when Mao's group came in power. Ofcourse Somalia is no China, but we are too witnessing a Revolution along with its drama baggage

And economically we are doing better than Ethiopia and Kenya. These countries receive billions of AID, which cannot be compared to 1 billion remitances of Somalis. Yet they are stagnant, nothing has changed in their economic structures: Ethiopia is still exporting cheap coffee, qat (thanks to Somalia) and livestock products. Somali economy is been transformed structurally, there is an emerging commercial capitalism in Mogadishu, commercial agriculture in the South, service sector economy in Mogadishu, private educational services etc. And yes we do alot of import and export (trade smuggling)

About the billionaires, so does Congo has much billionaires living in Belgium and Paris. Who happened to be Mobuto family members which had billions of money in foreign banks.


Stop been superficial bro, economy is not about how many having a couple of billionaires while the rest is poor as hell.