SomaliNet Forums

FAH1223 wrote:[But in Iraq and Somalia the dictator's regime was causing fitnah killing people (innocent) ?

Does that make them Kaffir? There are ten things that take one out of the fold of islam. Killing isn't one of them. The whole purpose with this fiqh principle is this deen is a deen of sabr and not following of desires. Ofcourse our desire would be to remove the dictator but We have to go through the asbaab of the Sunnah because theres a Ummah out there and You're not alone. The maslaxah or greater good of Ciraaq and Somalia would be to not rebel against the dictators, give them da'wah unless they stop praying after which we owe them no obedience.

Murax

Again the thing is an Islamic ruler, who rules by Islam.

In ur thing a ruler can introduce all sorts of Haraam things, do all sorts of evil deeds, be like Ata Turk and so long as he prays, we should stay put.

Think about it man and how strong is this hadith, cause similarly there are hadiths that say fight injustice, and fight oppression.

The way ur sayin it, we need Malaak Cirfo back as he was our ruler, he took the land by force

Murax please deal with my previous post..as i dont want to be repeating myself.


I just want to add..how can we always observe a ruler praying?? should we install CCTV cameras to monitor him and then broadcast that to the nation that hes praying? and even if he prays..whos not to say hes doing it for show..so that the majority of the people are fooled into thinking hes a 'good' muslim? Do you think all the people who pray their five daily prayers are good people??


Isnt it more appropriate for you to say..as long as the ruler prays and fears Allah and rules people with adl and ihsan ..then we should obey him??

the dogmatical mind at work.

You said the following statements:


1) If Caydid AUN succeeded in capturing all of Somalia by force in 1991 We would be forced to obey Him and not be able to rebel against Him, so long as He prays

2) We already know AY prays. Now if He were to capture the entire Somalia by force We would have to obey him even if He whips our back and takes our wealth

and you also added by saying:

3) One of the conditions that a leader needs to have by your own admission is that the leader mus be elected by people.

I gather you are human being who can reason and knows one plus one is two, having said that doesn't the third comment contradict the previous two comments?

And why don't you put all your cards on the table, provide the hadith which you have said you will put forward?

this line of thinking sickens me, and turns my stomach..

but it is interesting,..

this would be a usefull thinking to introduce to a captured , conquered population.
the christians successfully used alcohol to devastate and keep down natives,
this can be used against other muslims..

to fuk with thier minds

Assalamu a'leykum,

there is no obedience to those who disobey Allah (azza wa jall) and his messenger (salalhu aleyhi wasalam). And the ruler who is not rebbeled against is the one who rules by the Sha'riah, even though he might be evil in other matters. As for the one who trys to dismantle the Hukm of Allah (azza wa jall) then we dont obey them and verily they are from amongst the tawagheet.

And Allah(azza wa jall) orders us to reject the twagheet and to believe in him alone.

Akhi wake up and stop reading garbage from the likes of troid.org,spubs and these other comedians.

Murax bro i really didnt want to take part in this topic but now i feel like i must..

First of all, obedience to the ruler is wajib unless he comes with a clear cut kufr.. Him praying or not is not the only condition.. For example what if the ruler prays but commits shirk? Rafidas pray.. Also the salafi scholars differ on tarik salah(one who abandons prayer).. Shayk bin Baz says their kaffir while shayk Albani says no as long as he knows his sinning than his still a muslim..

There were many leaders who prayed and were seen performing Hajj yet some of the scholars made Takfiir on them due to their corrupt beliefs.. Saddam Hussien for example.. Shayk bin Baz said he was kaffir.. Khadafi also when he wrote his book (the green book) where he calls for the change of some ayats.. Saudi shayks have also made takfir on them..

Now what is clear cut kufr? There are many things and scholars have explained this..

One of them is shirk (associating partners with Allah).. Ruling by other than what Allah has revealed, meaning quran and sunnah.. Now when it comes to ruling by other than what Allah has revealed our salafi scholars of today say if the ruler rules by other than the Sharia but knows his sinning than his still a muslim but his a mujrim (criminal, sinner)who follows his desires... But if the ruler believes that sharia is backwards and Democracy or any of the men made laws are better than the sharia and are more befitting than that ruler is a Kafir by agreement of all Scholars..

Just to let you know here are some of the salafi scholars who have passed judgements against their rulers and gave fatwas to fight against them..

Shayk Il-islam ibn Taymiya faught against the tarters even though some of them prayed and said the shadaha because to him they were kaffirs due to their corrupt beliefs..

Imam Mohammud bin Abdulwahab waged Jihad against the Othmans because to him they have allowed shirk. That is how the kingdom of Saudi Arabia was established. Makes you think ah?


P.S.. I agree with you in principle that the muslim rulers no matter how corrupt or evil they might be should not be rebelled against as long as their muslim..This is the way of the salafi.. but you will find that the issue in dispute in most cases is what takes a person out of islam.. My advice, we should all study the case more in detail..

Murax, ma diinta marexaanka ayaa ku baray taa?

Waxa lagu forjeeyo iyo waxa kale kala barro. No wonder people say your people curse the prophet and religion when they get mad

Anyone who didnt know better would take this topic seriously; as if Somalis knows anything about diin or human dignity.

And to think that those beating the drums are those partly responsible for the distraction of Somalia...is,...a FOCKING JOKE!!!


Hawiye are those that need to be reminded what Islamic guideline they shouldnt break, not reer Sheik Isaxaq..as they have their own mini-khalipha state run by Khalif Abu-Dahir Riyale Al kahin.

sadeboi my bad, i chewed the ppast 4 nights and havent slept sinds xalay.

sadeboi wrote:No wonder people say your people curse the prophet and religion when they get mad

True!

Yet the only ones with a factioning government.

I wonder what your people use to curse to be in such a bloody mess?

Alchemist is 100% right and a much better explanation. The culema did make takfir on Saddam Hussien and I didn't know they did so with qadafi either. Either way as Alchemist said what do We do if the ruler collaberates with Kuffar, acts not in accordiance with Islam and is a tyrant? The culemaa look into why He's doing what He's doing. If He's doing so out of worldy desire (Wanting to hold on to the kursi) then He is not a kaffir. If He does so because He truly beleives that the system of the kuffar is better than Islam, and Islam is outdated etc. then it is riddah/kuffr. Also not praying Salah is just one example but the general rule as Alchemist said is if the Man comes with something that is clearly kuffr whether it be a statement etc. If it was only not ruling by the Quran and the Sunnah that makes a ruler kaffir then every ruler in the Muslim world would be a kaffir today and We would have to fight them and the whole Muslim world would be in a brutal civil war. Tyrannical rulers that kill, rob etc. are major sinners but they are not kuffar and for the greater good of the ummah You must obey them ofcourse not in matters that contradict the Quran/Sunnah.

I dont like this business of takfir by scholars

what is their motive? im suspicious. Im extremely wary of many Saudi Scholars.

Saddam was a bad ruler..hence a bad Muslim leader...it doesnt take him out of Islam..if that were the case it can be argued many of the Muslim leaders can be called 'kaafir'.