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Saudi Arabia.

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Salahuddiin
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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Salahuddiin » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:09 pm

Ok I understand your point. So now you see ruler of Saudi-Arabia as your amir? So if tomorrow some kafir country would invade Jaziratul Carab and depose regime that's where your loyalty would end? Or as long as they are fighting back even though they wouldn't have absolute power over country any more you still would see them as a legal rulers? Because this is comparable to what happened in Somalia. If you say you don't have sufficient knowledge about the situation wouldn't it be better then not to use very harsh style while commenting ICU?

Who do you support in Somalia?

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby eri_jeberti » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:15 pm

I HAVE AN IDEA..why wont we show this whole thread to the saudi goverment and let see if it gets them upset and stop the $400 million dollars they already donated to feed the 1 million famine struck somalin refugees who escaped from the war,wallah u somalian should be ashamed of urselves,if it wasnt for saudia arabia it wouldve been another big concert like in 1984 trying to feed those helpless ppl,i just dont understand it you talk shit about them but when its tough times u call ur muslim saudi brothers to help.

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby American Salafi » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:22 pm

salahuddin

why are you keep repeating "your saudi Amir". I live in America not Saudi Arabia. There is no benefit in constantly mocking and
instigating the people against their leaders. this is the way of the khawarij. When it comes to Somalia, my opinion is that if your supporting some particular group whether its the TFG, Al-Shabaab, ICU, etc don't base your support on religious bases. What Al-Shabaab and the TFG are doing has nothing to do with Islam. So my advise is stop making the religion a skip goat for acts of Terrorism and Brutality. Islam is not a religion of Chaos and everyone doing their own thing and saying this is "Jihad"

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Salahuddiin » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:34 pm

Eri-Jeberti

Saudi Arabian regime and rich individuals/charity organizations inside the country are two different things.

In crisis of Somalia Saudi gov actively supports secular TFG and their Ethiopian allies, even in the time when there was an islamic government ruling in Somalia in 2006.

American Salafi

I asked this question because you said that rulers are to be respected so I asked that if a regime that you support is ousted by kuffar is that the point where your loyalty ends, or do you still keep supporting them while they fight? Because you mock ICU even though you consider mocking rulers haram. So are they not legal anymore because Ethiopians ousted them?

And by the way, there's a consensus of scholars that when muslim country is invaded it becomes obligatory for everyone in the area to fight and even wife doesn't need to ask permission from her husband. There's no doubt that in Somalia there's 100% legal jihad going on according to sharica.

And how do you define terrorism? Allah ordered in Qur'an to terrorize enemies of Allah and our enemies. Could you give the proof from Qur'an and Sunna why al Shabaab is not an islamic organization because this is what you claim every day. I'd like to hear what makes you say that?

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby American Salafi » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:07 pm

Salahuddiin wrote:Eri-Jeberti

Saudi Arabian regime and rich individuals/charity organizations inside the country are two different things.

In crisis of Somalia Saudi gov actively supports secular TFG and their Ethiopian allies, even in the time when there was an islamic government ruling in Somalia in 2006.

American Salafi

I asked this question because you said that rulers are to be respected so I asked that if a regime that you support is ousted by kuffar is that the point where your loyalty ends, or do you still keep supporting them while they fight? Because you mock ICU even though you consider mocking rulers haram. So are they not legal anymore because Ethiopians ousted them?

And by the way, there's a consensus of scholars that when muslim country is invaded it becomes obligatory for everyone in the area to fight and even wife doesn't need to ask permission from her husband. There's no doubt that in Somalia there's 100% legal jihad going on according to sharica.

And how do you define terrorism? Allah ordered in Qur'an to terrorize enemies of Allah and our enemies. Could you give the proof from Qur'an and Sunna why al Shabaab is not an islamic organization because this is what you claim every day. I'd like to hear what makes you say that?


You raised several points about Jihad and especially Fardul-Ayn.

Raising the banner of Jihad can only done by the Amir not individuals like Osama and such. Also the people must unite to together under the Amir to fight. You can't have different groups doing there own thing, this leads to chaos. Also one has to have the means to fight. Its not possible to fight tanks and airplanes with ak47's. So having the means is a must as Allah says

And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war(tanks, planes, missliies, artillery, etc.) .. (Al-Anfal 8:60)

So Jihad is obligated upon those that meet these conditions. There is no running away from Jihad when these conditions have been might. So Allah does not burden a people more than they can do. so don't except people that have nothing to fight. Throwing grenades at ethiopian tanks than running away and causing the whole neighborhood to be wiped out is not Jihad. blowing yourself in Gas station, schools, hostipals is not Jihad. that is killing yourself.

What Al-Shabaab is doing is not Jihad. Shabaab is a group. They have no authority over anything. So for them to call to Jihad is not correct. Also their methodoloogy is the same as Al-Qai'da. An ideology of takfir and killing of the innocent. I believe the threat of the Ethiopia can't be compared to that of Al-Shabaab. They are an enemy within.

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby salafi_student » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:23 pm

Kolombo wrote:
Because we envy them and are jealous of them. :up:



".......They bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say: Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts" [Quran 3:119]

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Kolombo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:56 pm

salafi_student wrote:".......They bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say: Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts" [Quran 3:119]


That verse reffers to the kuffaar, do you even know what you copy & paste?

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Kolombo » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:01 pm

Salafi_Student,

Here's the whole verse:

"Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not,- though ye believe in the whole of the Book. When they meet you, they say, "We believe": But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: "Perish in your rage; Allah knoweth well all the secrets of the heart."

This talks about the Qur'aish who would claim to be Muslims out in the open, but in secret continue to disbelief and remain Mushrikeen.

How does this verse apply to my comment?

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby dawwa9 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:04 pm

Saudis

:up:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


West side niggas :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Haddad » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:14 pm

dawwa9 wrote:Image
They could use dhaqan celis.

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby dawwa9 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:27 pm

Haddad wrote:They could use dhaqan celis.



They live in their own country :roll:

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby The_Patriot » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:19 am

these guys look like latinos they are pretending to be Gang 18 lool.

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Salahuddiin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:16 am

[quote="American Salafi"]
[quote]Raising the banner of Jihad can only done by the Amir not individuals like Osama and such. Also the people must unite to together under the Amir to fight. You can't have different groups doing there own thing, this leads to chaos.[/quote]

Having amir is not a requirement for defensive jihad. Having amir is of course better for organizing mujahidin and planning operations more effectively but it's not a condition. None of the four madhabs says that without amir there's no jihad, but they have CONSENSUS that jihad becomes fardul cain when enemy invades muslim country, regardless of imam.

If you have knowledge that anyone from the salaf or any classical scholar said that condition for defensive jihad is amir please bring it forth because this is something that I never heard from any scholar or read from any book of fiqh related to this subject. Ibn Taymiya's opinion is that first obligation after iman is fighting the kuffar who attacks muslim land and there's no conditions like supplies or transport.

There is scholarly opinion that even offensive jihad can be made without amir (makruh but not haram) and this is found from many classical books of fiqh. So even though there would be an islamic state with imam permission is not needed according to this opinion. For example ibn Qudama wrote that absence of amir shouldn't be a reason to delay jihad. Reason for offensive jihad without a permission of amir could be for example if imam is attached to duniya and don't send army to fight jihad.

These are the conditions when jihad becomes fardul cain:

1. Kuffar enter muslim land.
2. Muslims and enemy meets in battle everybody in the area must fight.
3. Imam calls muslims to fight.

These three are conditions by consensus and then there's another opinions like muslims are taken captive or if there's something that needs to be done and no one can do it but certain person then it becomes obligatory on him.

And it is not written in classical fiqh books that it's a requirement of jihad for every group to unite, even though it would be of course much better. And al Shabab has amir by the way, as well as every group fighting against TFG/Xabashi in Somalia. They had amirs since day one so there's not a situation that amir is absent.

[quote]Also one has to have the means to fight. Its not possible to fight tanks and airplanes with ak47's.[/quote]

This is again something that wasn't known in classical fiqh books and is something very new in fiqh.

It is said that if enemy is more than twice the size of muslims, then it's allowed to withdraw or fortify and wait for more mujahidin, if the number of MUSLIM SOLDIERS is less than 12000 because of the hadith of Prophet (saws) that army of 12000 can't be won because of their numbers. So if they are beaten there is another reason for their defeat.

I don't think that in any muslim country there's less than 12000 armed and trained soldiers ready to fight jihad.

Also when we look at the wars fought by Prophet (saws) and his successors, most of the times muslims were almost nothing compared to their enemies, especially against two superpowers of the time, Romans and Persians. Enemy had superior weapons and training and many times their numbers were more than ten times bigger than muslims (battle of Muta was 3000-200000 according to historians).

[quote]So Jihad is obligated upon those that meet these conditions. There is no running away from Jihad when these conditions have been might.[/quote]

From which classical fiqh book these conditions are from? You say you follow the salaf so who where those scholars of those generations who thought like this?

[quote]What Al-Shabaab is doing is not Jihad. Shabaab is a group. They have no authority over anything. So for them to call to Jihad is not correct. Also their methodoloogy is the same as Al-Qai'da. An ideology of takfir and killing of the innocent. I believe the threat of the Ethiopia can't be compared to that of Al-Shabaab. They are an enemy within.[/quote]

Insha Allah I'll start a new topic about khawarij and mujahidin of this day and I hope we can have academic discussion of this subject there. I just came from work, but insha Allah I'll write something in the evening or tomorrow. I hope we can discuss this subject throughly because many people have misconceptions about this issue to one way or another.

I honestly believe that this new fiqh of jihad that wasn't known before in the history of Islam is made because classical islamic fiqh wouldn't be comparable to foreign policy of modern countries so that's why they think that needs to be modern interpretation of classical texts. It's strange that there's 1400 years of scholarly history and after that it's changed to a new direction.

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby Salahuddiin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:22 am

Still one comment about the means to fight. Did any recent day scholar that you admire say during the Afghan war against the soviets that they can't fight because they have AK47's and enemy has bombs, planes and tanks? More than one million afghans were killed in the war but still in the end mujahidun won.

Ethiopia and TFG are nothing compared to what Soviet army was with their Afghan puppet government.

So was these scholars opinion wrong, or is there a major difference between that war and what is now happening in Somalia or elsewhere?

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Re: Saudi Arabia.

Postby salafi_student » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:52 am

Takfeeris love to have an argument in every opportunity!

As knowledgeable person said to some ignorant person who came to argue with him; " I have not lost my faith and if you have lost yours, go and find it somewhere else" closest meaning.

Most of them are confused with their believe - they're like the leaves on a tree that follows the wind, if a suufi, shici, etc etc.. comes they will follow it with out ever seeking knowledge. They are the champs of arguing, slandering others outside the Masajids and in Salat they become like those described as:

"When they stand up to Prayer, they stand without earnestness,... "(Quran, 4:142)

Because of their lack of knowledge for the basics and crucial duties of Islam!


As for now, Inii Saa'im : I do not want to have argument!


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