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Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

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Can killing innocent civilians in warfare be justified?

No
16
70%
Yes, at least based on "an eye for an eye"
7
30%
I don't know
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

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SummerRain
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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:22 pm

hypereffective wrote:
Ismahan123 wrote:The way I see it, I voted for the lesser of two evils. In any gov't or adminstration, innocent civilians will suffer and be killed. That is a given. However, had McBush and Pig lipstick ( who mind you, couldn't handle the affairs of Alaska let alone be the VP of USA) took office, we would've probably bigger mess than Bush left and far more distruction in their hands than Obama will wish to do in his time in office entirely.
What's your analysis on "bigger mess" based on? Can you cite some statistics comparing Obama to Bush (even for 6 months)? Can you show that fewer Muslims have been killed or displaced under Obama's rule? Your argument that you voted for "the lesser of two evils" is poor and illogical. You aren't better than millions of Americans who chose not to vote. You could have exercised the right not to vote, and you wouldn't have lost your rights/status, your job, your citizenship, your grants/scholarships (if you're a student), etc. SMH.


Your argument is utterly absurd. As a citizen, it important to exercise ones right to vote. That is the single most determinant factor of how policies can be changed and attitudes as well. its a citizen's responsiblity both personally and to the country. The fact that Obama has cultivated himself as willing and determined to develope relationship with muslim countries, close Gitmo, emphasis the importance of cross cultural/religious understanding is what I find attractive in his policies. And for you to seek analytical data or proof that the Obama adminstration is far worst than Bush's is illogical. How can you compare a 6 months span of time to that of eight long years? For us to see any substantial difference, we need to give the new adminstration more time, atleast a year. For now, the rhetoric is different, the rest will hopefully come in due time.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:08 pm

Ismahan123 wrote:Your argument is utterly absurd. As a citizen, it important to exercise ones right to vote. That is the single most determinant factor of how policies can be changed and attitudes as well. its a citizen's responsiblity both personally and to the country. The fact that Obama has cultivated himself as willing and determined to develope relationship with muslim countries, close Gitmo, emphasis the importance of cross cultural/religious understanding is what I find attractive in his policies. And for you to seek analytical data or proof that the Obama adminstration is far worst than Bush's is illogical. How can you compare a 6 months span of time to that of eight long years? For us to see any substantial difference, we need to give the new adminstration more time, atleast a year. For now, the rhetoric is different, the rest will hopefully come in due time.
Obama's policies aren't different from Bush's.

"But setting aside the platitudes that comprised most of Clinton’s speech and looking closely at her remarks that actually spoke meaningfully towards U.S. policy under the Obama, a different picture emerges, one not of a change of course from Bush but rather of near perfect continuity between the two administrations.

Obama’s foreign policy parallels Bush’s. The train may have switched tracks, but it’s still headed in the same direction."

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/200 ... ma-at-cfr/

Obama's rosy rhetoric and attempts to develop a positive relationship with Muslim countries are political tactics and do not change the fact that his executive orders intentionally cause many innocent civilian casualties. Obama didn't close Gitmo, where innocent Muslims are still tortured. There are already analytical data or proof that the Obama's administration is far worst than Bush's when it comes to killing innocent civilians. One such data:

"Data analyzed below for January 2009 suggests that the deadliness of the Afghan war for civilians under the Obama clock significantly exceeds that registered under the outgoing Bush regime. Boys, women, girls, tribal leaders all have perished at the hands of the foreign occupiers."

http://www.infowars.com/obama-more-dead ... than-bush/

The Farah Massacre, which was carried out under Obama's executive order caused the highest number of civilians killed in a single American operation in Afghanistan to date:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farah_massacre

To you, as a citizen, it might be important to exercise ones right to vote, but there's a reason why voter apathy exists. Millions of Americans are sick of the same rosy rhetoric and empty promises made in election after election; that's why they no longer bother with elections. They are sick of corrupt politicians who mesmerize them with fine speeches and empty promises that aren't kept just so to get elected. You can be excused, because you're young and new to this supposedly fine concept of presidential election and exercising one's right to vote. Alas, experience would teach you well, and the probability of you joining the ranks of voter apathy appears to be high.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby American-Suufi » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:15 pm

what does this tell u when israeli's see obama as a danger to israel and at the sametime see george bush as their strongest supporter/ally.

The percentage of Jewish Israelis who see the Obama administration as being pro-Israel has declined from 31% to 6% since May 17 according to a JPost/Smith poll published in Friday's editions. In the intervening month, Obama gave his homily to the Muslim world in Cairo on June 4, and his administration has come into open conflict with Israel's leaders over a 'settlement freeze' and over the opening of the Gaza crossings without the release of kidnapped IDF corporal Gilad Shalit.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -goes.html

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:49 pm

hypereffective wrote:Obama's policies aren't different from Bush's.

"But setting aside the platitudes that comprised most of Clinton’s speech and looking closely at her remarks that actually spoke meaningfully towards U.S. policy under the Obama, a different picture emerges, one not of a change of course from Bush but rather of near perfect continuity between the two administrations.

Obama’s foreign policy parallels Bush’s. The train may have switched tracks, but it’s still headed in the same direction."

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/200 ... ma-at-cfr/

Obama's rosy rhetoric and attempts to develop a positive relationship with Muslim countries are political tactics and do not change the fact that his executive orders intentionally cause many innocent civilian casualties. Obama didn't close Gitmo, where innocent Muslims are still tortured. There are already analytical data or proof that the Obama's administration is far worst than Bush's when it comes to killing innocent civilians. One such data:

"Data analyzed below for January 2009 suggests that the deadliness of the Afghan war for civilians under the Obama clock significantly exceeds that registered under the outgoing Bush regime. Boys, women, girls, tribal leaders all have perished at the hands of the foreign occupiers."

http://www.infowars.com/obama-more-dead ... than-bush/

The Farah Massacre, which was carried out under Obama's executive order caused the highest number of civilians killed in a single American operation in Afghanistan to date:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farah_massacre

To you, as a citizen, it might be important to exercise ones right to vote, but there's a reason why voter apathy exists. Millions of Americans are sick of the same rosy rhetoric and empty promises made in election after election; that's why they no longer bother with elections. They are sick of corrupt politicians who mesmerize them with fine speeches and empty promises that aren't kept just so to get elected. You can be excused, because you're young and new to this supposedly fine concept of presidential election and exercising one's right to vote. Alas, experience would teach you well, and the probability of you joining the ranks of voter apathy appears to be high.


One thing you need to keep in mind is, as a voter there are other issues (domestically) that we prioritize on; not just foreign policy. Rhetoric is importance, as promoting good will and diplomacy can go a long way sometimes. On the other hand, none of us were ever naive to believe there will be drastic changes in America's foreign policy esp in Afghanistan. Obama wants to end the war in Iraq and pull the troop out, but he always made it clear, Afghanistan was an area he wanted to focus on. With that said, its quite early in his term to determine any shift in the game.

Moreover, you are correct in that millions of American's are tired of politican's empty promises, but everyone deserves a chance, its best we give the adminstration time.

Ps You dont know if I may be older than you or could be your mother, do not mistake exercising my right to vote as a sign of being naive.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:58 pm

Ismahan123 wrote:Ps You dont know if I may be older than you or could be your mother, do not mistake exercising my right to vote as a sign of being naive.
This isn't about being naive. This is about reconciling what doesn't comply with the teachings of Islam with voting.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:13 am

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby FAH1223 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:14 am

hypereffective wrote:
Ismahan123 wrote:Ps You dont know if I may be older than you or could be your mother, do not mistake exercising my right to vote as a sign of being naive.
This isn't about being naive. This is about reconciling what doesn't comply with the teachings of Islam with voting.


theres nothing wrong with voting

voting lets you have a voice on where the taxes you pay go

if you sideline yourself, then you lose out

why be in this country if you arent gonna voice yourself, why be in your own bubble?

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:05 am

FAH1223 wrote:theres nothing wrong with voting

voting lets you have a voice on where the taxes you pay go

if you sideline yourself, then you lose out

why be in this country if you arent gonna voice yourself, why be in your own bubble?
You're just being repetitive by recycling the same excuses. You, as a citizen, don't have any voice on where the taxes you pay go; it's the governments money, and it goes to where the government fancies, like invading/occupying Muslim countries and intentionally killing innocent civilians. You continue to ignore answering how you can reconcile with electing a president whose executive orders kill many innocent civilians.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:14 am

hypereffective wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:theres nothing wrong with voting

voting lets you have a voice on where the taxes you pay go

if you sideline yourself, then you lose out

why be in this country if you arent gonna voice yourself, why be in your own bubble?
You're just being repetitive by recycling the same excuses. You, as a citizen, don't have any voice on where the taxes you pay go; it's the governments money, and it goes to where the government fancies, like invading/occupying Muslim countries and intentionally killing innocent civilians. You continue to ignore answering how you can reconcile with electing a president whose executive orders kill many innocent civilians.


Do you take part in your country's(whereever you reside) elections?

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:25 am

Ismahan123 wrote:Do you take part in your country's(whereever you reside) elections?
There hasn't been a functioning government, let alone elections, in Somalia for close to 20 years. If I were an American/European citizen, I wouldn't take part in elections at any level (city/state/province/region/federal).

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:29 am

hypereffective wrote:
Ismahan123 wrote:Do you take part in your country's(whereever you reside) elections?
There hasn't been a functioning government, let alone elections, in Somalia for close to 20 years. If I were an American/European citizen, I wouldn't take part in elections at any level (city/state/province/region/federal).


Dude, You are NOT in Somalia.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:31 am

Ismahan123 wrote:Dude, You are NOT in Somalia.
Well, I don't hold a non-Somali citizenship.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:52 am

hypereffective wrote:
Ismahan123 wrote:Dude, You are NOT in Somalia.
Well, I don't hold a non-Somali citizenship.


hmmm a prerequisite for Federal gov't jobs is the be a citizen of the country. I now wonder what country's intelligence agency you work with if not the US. :idea:

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby hypereffective » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:02 am

Ismahan123 wrote:hmmm a prerequisite for Federal gov't jobs is the be a citizen of the country. I now wonder what country's intelligence agency you work with if not the US. :idea:
You always come back to the same tired assumption. And you're wrong about the prerequisite; you can get such a job if you have clout. With clout, many prerequisites, laws, etc can be easily bypassed in your country.

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Re: Killing Innocent Civilians in Warfare

Postby SummerRain » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:05 am

I'm not tired of my assumptions, soon they will lead me to figuring out your agency. :up: :clap:


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