Adultery!!!!!

[SoMaLiSiZz]

The Law dont twist things

[SoMaLiSiZz]

But I have a quiz for u The Law, do u consider Allah caza wajal to be Just ?

[The Law26]

[quote="SoMaLiSiZz"]But I have a quiz for u The Law, do u consider Allah caza wajal to be Just ?[/quote]

Somalisizz

"The Law dont twist things".

I didn't twist, you used a female, Aids and adultery analogy, and I asked you a question relating to it? If the Saudi authorities know 10'000 of their fellow men go every day for sex tourism, why don't they do anything about it? And will you have stoned those men?

If you have read what I wrote on page 2, then you will have realised that I'm the only one here who raised the Justice issue. And as you need to read in big letters, let me repost it for you;

"In the Quran, Allah calls for doing justice and standing up for justice at least 52 times, not to mention verses that encourage mercy toward enemies, the liberation of slaves, and the elevation of women above their confused status at the time. The problem is not the sharia, but the ignorance of many of those who represent it. As for speaking out against the distortions and injustice done under its guise, I made a passion of that, as have many other Muslims I know."

http://www.somalinet.com/forum/viewtopi ... c&start=15

[SoMaLiSiZz]

So is it fair to say that you consider Allah caza wajal to be just ?


Haa amba maya dee Ado mahadsan


Fe Aman Allah

[Galol]

somalizz

If Allah existed and ordained such barbaric acts like stoning people who had sex in private, then Allah will most certainly not be just. he would be an evil,cruel, sex-obsessed entity we should fight against not worship.

Mercifully Allah exists only in the minds of the ignorant, the dumb, the brainwashed and the gullible.

[*Proud_Muslimah*]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Ahhhhhhhh you forgot to actually post anyting.[/quote]

No, I'm just trying to VALUE time and not waste it on someone who is not worth it

Assalamu Alaikum Law,

"What Islam (the Quraan) says about the sentence of adultery, and what some Muslims percieve it to be are two different things. Allah SWT Says"

Did you even read my posts horta? So are you saying those hadiths I have provided for you are just fake?

Again, these Qur'anic verses you have posted are referring to the UNMARRIED adulterer/adulteress

Re-read my posts and STUDY carefully the hadiths I have provided for you!

Al-Bahuty said: “The authentic practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) supports stoning to death as a punishment specified for adultery. In addition, the verse commanding this punishment was revealed in the Qur’an. Later, it was verbally abrogated but its ruling is still binding. `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “Almighty Allah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) with the truth and revealed unto Him the Qur’an. Among the revelation (brought by him) was the verse stipulating that married adulterer and adulteress should be stoned to death. We read, comprehended and understood it. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) acted in accordance with that and so did all of us. I fear, by the passage of time, that some people will say: ‘We do not find this verse in the Qur’an’, and thus they go astray abandoning an obligation given to them by Allah. Stoning to death is a Divine obligation and punishment specified for any married adulterer or adulteress once there is four witnesses or the confession of the accused.”

[intellex]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Then that would be tragic. We don't stone people so we can have a nice, leave it to beaver, society. You are a kid aren't you. So naive. believing in panaceas. Someday you will grow up and learn the world can't be shaped the way you think. When I was 18 I was a member of the Libertarian party and voted for Lyndon Larouche - now I realize I had a lot to learn.[/quote]



no mad biaj you dont stone people , but you ship weapons so they can

kill eachother , or ship them morons like your self . this is Islam and

muslims issue something that u dont know or care or have brains to

understand so step out this way shemale

[The Law26]

Proud Salaama sister.

“Among the revelation (brought by him) was the verse stipulating that married adulterer and adulteress should be stoned to death.”

Where is that ayat stoning adulterers? Prove it.

I heard it is a hadith that abrogated the ayat, but what you need to understand here is the different views on the issue of abrogation. Yes, the salafis aka wahabis belief that a hadith can abrogate the Koran. But, other Muslims believe that Allah SWT does not need human assistance to edit His words. I have heard the claim that Umar al-Farooq ra said that there used to be a verse ordering Rajm, but it was abrogated, i.e. no longer in The Quraan, however the command remained either holds no water because we know very well that Uthman Ghani ra had looked at the Quraan thoroughly in his Caliphate and would have included the Verse about stoning if it had still been applicable (and they were using the stoning law), or there was no such Verse or the law to be included in the Quraan? I say this because Uthman Ghani ra became Caliph immediately after Umar Farooq ra, and not the other way round. It was not included simply because there was no such Verse to be included in the Quraan.

The punishment for adultery clearly is 100 stripes. (see An-Nur 24:2). It is alleged to Umar that there was a verse on stoning and was lost because a goat ate it up. Thus the argument abrogating the ayats revolves around the thoery that the new verses were lost. Here is the hadith and how it was justified the missing ayats of stoning adulterers; a goat eating the verses:

Ibn Majah has narrated another hadith from 'Aishah which explicitly says that the two verses were lost after the death of the Prophet. She is reported to say: 'The verse of stoning and of sukling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

Do I have to believe that story as a basis for abrogating Allah SWT Word?

It is good to know something about Ahadith, but Ahadith must not be used to replace any commands, laws, ruling etc. in the Quraan. The laws, rulings/commands in the Quraan cannot and must not be compromised. Any Hadith that goes against any law/command in the Quraan on the same subject cannot be used and must be rejected for practical purposes. Such a Hadith may be true (as a record only) but it cannot apply if Allah SWT has given us a command that is different from that Hadith. Hadith cannot abrogate any Command in the Quraan.

How is it that people of Arabia who had exceptional memory that they memorized hadith for approx 150 years before they were written down by Imam Bukhari, but two "recorded" verses of the Holy Quraan on stoning and sukling were not remembered by anybody? How is it possible that these people with great memory (many of them were huffaz) forgot the text of these verses but remembered the message of the verses? If Allah SWT wanted them to forget these two verses (which I am sure Allah can do), why these people still remembered the messages? Didn’t Allah SWT told us that he completed, protected and perfected our religion, then what is with these claims of missing ayats? If the flogging sentence for adulterers were no longer applied then why were they kept in the Quraan? So if the Verse about stoning has been taken away by Allah SWT and replaced by the Verse and the law of lashing for adultery then how can the command about stoning still stand, when Allah SWT Himself is claimed to have replaced it?

To err is human. Allah SWT does not make mistakes, let that be clear. If Sahih Hadith does not contradict the Quraan then why completely different ruling for punishment of an adulteress in the Hadith to the Quraan? The Hadith only claims that Prophet Mohamed pbuh ordered the stoning for Jewish adulterers based on their religion. Since, the reveleation of the ayat our prophet didn't order Muslims to be stoned. How could a Muslim claim that the Prophet pbuh changed flogging to stoning, while Quraan never ever ordered stoning? Look up the Quraan for stoning, and you will be surprised to find the kind of people committed such kind of punishments.

•Nuh (PBUH) was threatened with stoning by disbeliever. (26:116)
•Ibrahim's(PBUH) father threatened Ibrahim(PBUH) with stoning. (19:46)
•Men in the cave were scared of stoning by disbeliever. (18:20)
•The three messengers were threatened with stoning by disbeliever. (36:18)

I know you guys and your sheikh Albaani believe hadiths abrogate Quraan. The laws/rulings/commands in the Quraan cannot and must not be compromised. Any Hadith that goes against any law/command in the Qur'an on the same subject cannot be used and must be rejected for practical purposes. Such a Hadith may be true (as for a record only) but it cannot apply at all times, if Allah (SWT) has given us a command that is different from that Hadith.

The fact is that the Prophet pbuh had a treaty with Jews of Madina that both parties will defend Madina (Yasrib at the time) if it was under attack from people outside Madina. The Jews wanted to be treated and judged for their crimes committed within their own community (no Muslim involved) according to the laws of their religions. They used to come to the Prophet pbuh for decisions as everyone had agreed that he would be the Head of State in which both communities (Muslims and Jews) were living.

Therefore, as the Jewish law and punishment for adultery was stoning, the Prophet pbuh have let them carry on within their own Jewish law as agreed in their treaty. Therefore, the Hadith can be regarded as authentic but the punishment for Muslims according to the Quraan for such crime (of adultery) is not stoning but lashes only.

Some people may try to get round the ruling in the Quraan by lashes first and then stoning according to Hadith, but that would be transgression from the Command in the Qur'an. Had it been both the lashes and the stoning it would have been in the Qur'an, it would have been o.k. And if someone is stoned but not lashed then clearly something has been done against the Command in the Qur'an.

The above is how I see the adultery stoning issue. The laws in the Qur'an must not be compromised in favour of any Hadith. Therefore, the Verse/Law of lashing adulterer in the Qur'an is not abrogated. Hadith cannot abrogate any Command in the Qur'an. It is vital that we all read and understand the Qur'an and know what are the Laws and Commands in it so that we do not compromise them in any way in favour of any hadith. Otherwise we will end up with a new human manufactured Quraan.

Allah has revealed the truth in the Quraan. It is certainly not going to disappear regardless of what any "scholar" says that contradicts the Quraan. It is the Quraan that guides. Any scholar that tries to guide against anything in the Quraan is not an Islamic scholar, but a cultural Muslim scholar. The Qur'an teaches us that Allah is inheritor of everything and everybody (42:53, 53:42, 96:8).

[dhuusa_deer]

To all participants:

Do you think it would have helped this debate if the surah dealing with adultary and its punishment was NOT eaten by a goat as was said in sahih hadith by Aisha?

[*Proud_Muslimah*]

Assalamu Alaikum brother Law,

Read the link.

The verse begins "al Sheikhu wal Sheikhatu..." “The married man and married woman, when they commit adultery then stone them.

Brother, there is a HUGE difference between what I'm saying in my posts and what you are saying here!

"Ibn Majah has narrated another hadith from 'Aishah which explicitly says that the two verses were lost after the death of the Prophet. She is reported to say: 'The verse of stoning and of sukling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

And where did you get this from? As far as I know, it was a revelation sent down upon Mohamed (saw) and not the other way around, no?

---> Hazrat Ubada bin Saamit (Radiyallahu Anhu) says, " Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) used to become over-burdened when Wahi (revelation) used to descend upon him, and his face used to become pale. On one occasion revelation descended upon Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) and he had a similar experience. After the revelation Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) said, "Take (this command of Allah) from me. Allah has ordained "a way out" for them (adulteress). A person married in a valid Islamic contract would be lashed 100 times and then stoned to death. An unmarried person will be lashed 100 times and then expelled from the city for a year." (Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Pg. 65)

The Quranic words “way out” were not explained or interpreted by puny human logic, rather a direct revelation from Allah Ta’ala clarified these words. Similar are the examples of salaah, zakaat and other obligations in Shariah. The pragmatic method of salaah and zakaat is not found in the Quran, nor is any human using his limited intellect permitted to interpret them <---

Ok...lets forget about this "stoning" subject for now and tell me how we come to know the method of salaat and zakaat since it's not found in the Qur'an?

BTW, fight/refute the issue not the person, a sect or an scholar/shiekh

[The Law26]

Proud

If you sure that another ayat in the Quraan abrogated, why don't you post the ayat here if you are confident enough. Or, you worried it is is merely an opinion (intrpretation added to it)?

Be my guest, show me please the ayat that abrogated the lashing punishment for adultery?

[The Law26]

"Ok...lets forget about this "stoning" subject for now and tell me how we come to know the method of salaat and zakaat since it's not found in the Qur'an?"

A good question, but isn't worthwhile first following Allah SWT Commands? Secondly, salaat, zakaat and more noble fard issues for Muslims came from the Sunnah/Hadith of our Prophet pbuh, and it never contradicts Allah's Commands, BUT COMPLIMENTS IT NICELY. If we ignore and deny Allah's words, aren't we altering very Words of Allah SWT given to us by his Loyal Prohphet Mohamed pbuh?

[*Proud_Muslimah*]

Assalamu Alaikum Law,

OK...lets first look at Salaat, all of these laws are not described in the Qur'an.

Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him)
said “Pray as you have seen me praying”

The Prophet (saw) taught us things that will invalidate our prayers and situations such as praying on a train or plane mean involuntary shifting of direction will not invalidate prayer.


Concealing the body - A man’s body must be covered between the navel and the knees
and also the shoulders. Women must be clothed fully with opaque covering, revealing
no shape of figure or hair at all.

Facing the Qiblah - One must face the sacred Mosque of Makkah to pray. If the direction is unknown, it
can be guessed and the prayer will be accepted, insh’Allah (“if Allah wills it so”).

Observed times of performing Salaat - Prayers are to be observed at the prescribed times.

Neglected Prayers - Salaat that is forgotten must be done even when late (“Kadaah”), the longer one leaves
it the more the reward of the prayer diminishes.
Invalidation of Salaat (that requires repeating the entire prayer)

Talking deliberately, or to do any acts outside the movements of prayer.

Laughing, eating & drinking (residual food in the mouth).

To significantly shift direction from the Ka’bah during the prayer.

Basically, everything that we do when we pray, such as folding the arms over the chest (right hand over left) after the Takbir and keeping the arms folded when ever you are standing (“Qawam”) in Salaat...etc!

There was another example, combining two sisters given in one of my posts. If you haven't read it, I would recommend you to re-read all of my posts and find it since it's an EXCELLENT example!

Zakaat is another example, go through the Qur'an and find the verses that talk about zakaat (as well as salaat)

"Be my guest, show me please the ayat that abrogated the lashing punishment for adultery?"

Brother, read my posts..you will find the answer there

I'm off to Lakemba, Salam and looking forward to reading your reply

[*Proud_Muslimah*]

BTW bro, before I go just wanted to ask where on earth did you get that hadith from?

Salam

[The Law26]

Proud

Sister enjoy your prayers and education in Lakemba, and were you asking me where I got that hadith from? I will let you know when you post the ayat. Given that I mentioned other different views of the notion of the abrogation of some ayats, it must be in chronological order to the lashing ayat, below, and I can't find any.

What was the relevance of posting salat and zekat when we both agree that it was the souces of our Noble Prophet pbuh. I didn't get it. The prophet pbuh brought us a wonderful religion, and that is why we ought to follow Allah SWT's messenger who gave us Allah SWT Commands in the Quraan.