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Adultery!!!!!

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intellex
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Postby intellex » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:21 am

[qoute mad biaj]

Here we go again, consulting crap written by morons a couple of thousand years ago for moral guidance.

that was years ago , but you are saying yes to your leaders who are morons Wink

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Postby Steeler [Crawler2] » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:23 am

My alliegance to my "leaders" is bound in law and an oath I took 21 years ago. I pledged to obey duly constituted authority in thought, word and deed. There was no "unless" in there anywhere.

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Postby intellex » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:29 am

"My alliegance " i never doubted about your loyalty just like i dont doubt

the dog, but i doubt your intelligence mr moron Very Happy

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Postby Steeler [Crawler2] » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:30 am

My tested IQ is 135

intellex
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Postby intellex » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:33 am

ok sharon stone Laughing Laughing right you mean - 135 Laughing

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Postby Steeler [Crawler2] » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:42 am

Of course, those tests are culturally biased

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Postby Steeler [Crawler2] » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:43 am

Of course, those tests are culturally biased

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Postby intellex » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:47 am

smart person would have never ever said that , son u need to get some brains while you are in asia , if you are smart you dont need to prove Wink its like having a nice car you dont need to tell people they can see it right?

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Postby The Law26 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:00 pm

Let me conclude this topic, but first let me quote The Noble Qur'an 22:54

And that those who have been given knowledge may know that it (this Qur'an) is the truth from your Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may SUBMIT TO IT WITH HUMILITY. And verily, Allah is the Guide of those who believe, to the Straight Path. So submit to Allah......not humanity

The Quran does not prescribe stoning for adultery. These are Allah SWT's Words:

The Noble Qur'an An-Nur 24:2-9

2. The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law).

3. The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater, etc.) And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress, etc.)]. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islâmic Monotheism).

4. And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh).

5. Except those who repent thereafter and do righteous deeds, (for such) verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.

7. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).

8. But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.

9. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth.

Before the above ayats were revealed, the Torah punishment for adultery stoning to death was the norm, as you can see from the hadith below;

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 6.79, Narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar

The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them." He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them, "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

The fact is, Stoning is not the prescribed punishment for adultery in the Holy Book; flogging is. Thus, it is not in the sharia. This is another example of man acting as Allah SWT. Those who prefer their law to Allah SWT's will answer, they will answer to Him, no matter how smug or smart they believe themselves to be.

Should the Islamic punishment for adultery be reconsidered?

By Syed Shahabuddin.

It is well known that the Quran was revealed in stages over 23 years. Until revelation on a specific point was received by the Prophet, he followed the law of Moses or the Traditions of Abraham but once a revelation was received, there was no question of his substituting it by his own will or by the law of Moses. In any case, there is no record in Sahih al Bukhari or any other accepted compendium of the Traditions of the Holy Prophet of another Rajm (death by stoning) carried out under the command of the Prophet.

Some scholars support 'Rajm' by attributing a statement to the second Caliph Omar that a revelation on the subject had been received but had been lost. It is generally accepted that the Quran was compiled in its present form during the period of the third Caliph Othman. Some scholars maintain that the compilation was already available during the life-time of the Prophet or during the Caliphate of the first Caliph Abu Bakr.

The real challenge to Islam in the 21st Century is to rewrite the fiqh but for this it has to throw up a genius who can combine the knowledge and wisdom of the five acknowledged Imams (Abu Hanifa, Shafii, Malik, Hanbal and Jafar Sadiq), to consider the new questions that have arisen, since the gates of Ijtihad were closed in the 10th Century, and formulate answers in the light of the Quran and the authoritative Traditions of the Prophet which are the only two pillars on which the Shariah rests.

The entire article may be found at: http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01 ... 200256.htm

For those who elevate hadith to equal or above the Quran, here is the hadith that claims to allow for the abrogation of the punishment for adultery by flogging as presented in the Quran:

'Abdullah bin 'Abbas reported that 'Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy or a confession. [Muslim, III, No. 4194; Bukhari, VIII, No. 816.]

If you believe this hadith could abrogate the Word of Allah SWT, then we must invent a new Quraan and believe that Allah SWT did not protect His Book and its compilation, that all words in it are not true and that, contrary to what Allah SWT tells us, this Book is NOT complete and true.

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Postby The Law26 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:02 pm

On the issue of abrogation, there is no way I could present a suitable course on Islamic law on these boards, it is a highly complex and confusing process. But I can briefly explain that there is provision for abrogation of the Quraan as the revelations were revealed. The abrogated verse is called mansukh, while the abrogating verse is called nasikh.

The concept is supported by the Quraan:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things? [2:106]

Allah's directives were often revealed incrementally in order to allow for acceptance of radical new ideas by people who clung to tradition. The treatment of slavery is an example of this. Abrogation by hadith in the case of stoning is based on an expansion of this concept to include the revelations in the Torah and Bible:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [Leviticus. 20:10]

If a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both into the gate of the city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die. [Deuteronomy 22:23]

It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. [5:44]

When the Prophet had not received a revelation abrogating a prior law, he applied prior revealed law:

Narrated Ibn Umar (RA): A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle (S) on a charge of committing illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them: ‘What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?’ They replied: ‘Our priests have innovated the blackening of faces with charcoal and Tajbiya’ (being mounted on a donkey, with their faces in opposite directions, then mortified in public). Abdullah bin Salaam said: ‘0 Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.’ The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajm (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salaam said to the Jew: ‘Lift up your hand.’ The Divine Verse of the Rajm was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle (S) ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. [Bukhari 8:809].

So, this hadith was not rejected as part of the history of the revelations, yet there is another less known:

Narrated Ash-Shaibani: I asked Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: "Did Allah’s Apostle (S) carry out the Rajm (stoning) penalty." He said: "Yes". "Was it before the revelation of Surah An-Noor (24:02) or after it?" He replied: "I don’t know." [Bukhari 8:804]

With so much doubt, and so little justice, how can we proceed with death punishments in the name of Allah SWT? The west is not our greatest enemy, it is Shaitan whispering in the words of those among us. Jahiliyyah is still within our ranks and to support Allah SWT and His vision, we must continue to speak out for HIS WORDS and not those of corrupted officials, guided by nafs, who infect the minds of our brothers and sisters with convoluted interpretations and extra-Quranic distortions.

Stoning is from Jahiliyyah, derived from the Torah and Bible. Allah sent us something new and better. This is a test

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Postby *Proud_Muslimah* » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm

Assalamu Alaikum,

The whole article contradicts itself really!

"'Abdullah bin 'Abbas reported that 'Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy or a confession. [Muslim, III, No. 4194; Bukhari, VIII, No. 816.]"

The fact that in this hadith POINTS OUT Umar (r.a) said "I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah" should HINT something!

"Narrated Ash-Shaibani: I asked Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: "Did Allah’s Apostle (S) carry out the Rajm (stoning) penalty." He said: "Yes". "Was it before the revelation of Surah An-Noor (24:02) or after it?" He replied: "I don’t know." [Bukhari 8:804]" "With so much doubt, and so little justice, how can we proceed with death punishments in the name of Allah SWT?"

If the companions of the prophet (saw) had doubts then surely they would have NOT continued with the stoning to death punishment brother.

"3. The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater, etc.) And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress, etc.)]. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islâmic Monotheism)."

The fact that this verse mentions "marries" should hint something as well, no?

But it's good to see you agreeing with the abrogation part instead of denying it (like you were before) brother Smile

BTW brother, did you read those verses you have posted?

"7. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).

8. But it shall AVERT the PUNISHMENT (OF STONING TO DEATH) FROM her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie"

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Postby The Law26 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:45 pm

Proud are you telling me that the Holy Quran is not the final word of Allah SWT? He says:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. [24:2-3]

Has He given us a distinction between married and unmarried persons? Where do you see it? Has He not made this punishment clear and easy to understand?

When you die and face Allah SWT, tell Him that you followed others but not Allah SWT's laws. Do you want to believe the verse was lost as Uthman ra was claimed to be qouted? Doesn't that mean that Allah SWT did not preserve the Quraan intact, and there were missing parts, what else is missing from your Quraan, seems that you got a new book other than Quraan.

How can stoning be in the sharia if it is not in the Quraan, and ignore what is written in the Quraan that contradicts an earlier hadith derived from Torah laws, the True Word of Allah SWT? You are tempting sin, sister you are stubborn and arrogant as to how you go about it. This is why Muslims are so weak, we believe in scholars and fallible humans and ignore the basic Word of Allah SWT, that is why we have 100's of Muslim sects claiming each to be the saved Muslim sect.

A little "knowledge" is a dangerous thing, and so-called Muslims like Proud and Somalisiz are an anathma to the teachings of Allah SWT and bring shame to the Prophet pbuh. Our prophet pbuh did not spend all his life trying to liberate humanity from the thinking of the Jahiliyyah, the era of ignorance, just to have us dig it up again. Some still cling to the Jahiliyyah, pronouncing it their heritage and denouncing the word of Allah SWT as bida'.

The ignorance expressed by these people is indicative of how Allah SWT will show us why we must remain vigilant against those who will justify ANYTHING to bring down Islam.

The west is not our greatest enemy, it is Shaitan whispering in the words of those among us. Jahiliyyah is still within our ranks and to support Allah and His vision, we must continue to speak out for HIS WORDS and not those of corrupted officials, guided by nafs, who infect the minds of our brothers and sisters with convoluted interpretations and extra-Quranic distortions.

Stoning is from Jahiliyyah, derived from the Torah and Bible. Allah sent us something new and better. If the Prophet pbuh was here, he would tell you himself that he cannot override Allah SWT's law. But we are not talking about Islam here anyway.

In several despotic nations, many have already been killed by stoning due to silence by good Muslims and by those who are easily inculcated by Shaitan's voice. Allah SWT tells us He will guide who he will, but He also says you are free to choose who you follow, who to submit to.

Allah SWT protected His Word in the Book (not to believe that parts are missing), but He leaves it up to us whether we will protect it in our hearts, our minds, our lives and our actions. Some of us will stand strong and some of us won't. I know where I stand. Do you?

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Postby Smooth_Qaaxoti » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:48 pm

Whoah that's big.

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Postby *Proud_Muslimah* » Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:01 pm

Assalamu Alaikum,

LOL...give us a break seriously

"Proud are you telling me that the Holy Quran is not the final word of Allah SWT?"

Where did I say that in my post...I asked you simple questions, what does this have to do with my questions?

Again, these are the verses YOU (not me) have posted Smile

"7. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).

8. But it shall AVERT the PUNISHMENT (OF STONING TO DEATH) FROM her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie"

"The ignorance expressed by these people is indicative of how Allah SWT will show us why we must remain vigilant against those who will justify ANYTHING to bring down Islam"

Here we go with your FALSE accusations yet again, to tell you the truth the person who is expressing "ignorance" here is YOU, not us!

We are NOT bringing Islam down but rather, preaching the REAL Islam...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

GO AND LEARN YOUR DEEN Rolling Eyes
Last edited by *Proud_Muslimah* on Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Smooth_Qaaxoti » Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:02 pm

Thats wassup Proud Sister.. Wink


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