Shirib: mowlid reply

[SultanOrder]

Shirib, what part of it is haram to you? If the Rasul recognized it as a blessed day and even fasted, and we muslims mark it in our calendar and stay within the lines of what is sunnah determined by the shariah, what is the problem with it?

Shirib if you think that the simple arguments that you put up have any weight, then long ago people would have stopped doing it (if you can accept that there were many many many great ulema before you, who have dealt with this issue). This is a tradition that has lasted over a thousand years, and the greatest of our ulema have for the most part agreed with it. And they have come up with a simple very easy guideline: first you must know it is not an obligation (fard) to do it, two it is not a sunnah of the rasul or sahaba in the way it is done now, three if you are against it because you fear going out of the boundaries of the Sunnah then there is nothing wrong with that and you will not be questioned as to why you didn't, three if you do it with in the boundaries of the shariah of what is permissible then it is a meritorious thing with many rewards and benefits for those who do it.

The benefits of it are many, and here are a few. It gives a chance for believing brothers and believing sisters to come together, and any gathering that comes together for noble reasons is loved by Allah, and the angels descend on the gathering to pray for the believers and Allah forgives all those who intend, and some even say even those who did not come for the same intent and just were present without taking part in it will also be forgiven by Allah because of his Rahma. The Qura'an is recited, and you very well know the benefits of the Qur'an and it is multiplied exponentially within gatherings because of how much Allah loves gatherings for his sake and his beloved (saws). The seerah of the Rasul(saws) and his sahabah is recounted and once again remembered in the hearts of the believers and their love for him increases in their remembrance. Then they send Salawat (prayers) Salaams (salutations) on the rasul(saws) which is an obligation on every muslim and it can never be done to much of, and they ask to be among those who the Rasul (saws) intercedes on behalf of when there is no greater intercession than that of the Rasul(saws) (may allah make us among those who receive this because of our love of the Rasul (saws) ). Some of the benefits of sending salawat and salams on the Rasul (saws) are that they are forgiven 10 bad deeds and earn 10 good deeds, Allah raises their degree by 10, and for everytime you send salwat allah sends 10 on you.

These are just some basic reasons, and if you see it as it is, it is hard to disagree with. You can be among those who accept it as something that will never go away and has lasted better part of the history of islam, if you choose to not do it because you believe it is not part of the sunnah may Allah reward you for your noble intentions, or you can be among those who attack, deride, mock, and insult those who don't agree with you.

edit: Also bringing food is a sunnah for gatherings and you recieve ajar iyo xasanah for it, so again that is a good thing.


If you can't attack these things individually, to me they seem like ingredients that make an excellent recipe when added together.


Also this is done on other important dates that commensurates something great like Mi'raj (when the Rasul(saws) got to a point near to Allah that no creation has ever gotten to.

[melo]

The prophet saws fasted on both Monday and Thursday, so the mawlid emphasis is not actually there. Secondly, the sahabah never celeberated this day in their lifetimes. If mawlid was fasting and seerah day, i think the backlash would be less. The problem with Mawlid celeberations in particular is the type of people that come it, and the fixation around the specific date of 12th of Rabi Awwal

You simply cannot fixate or legislate 12 Rabi Awwal as an Islamic holiday. Islam has 2 holidays, the two eids. That's it.

[SultanOrder]

The reason that that particular day was chosen is because it is the one that has the most likelyhood and agreed upon by the majority of scholars who studied this. Like I said it is not an obligation in the deen to do so and anyone who says it says it out of excessive zealousness. The Sahaba saw the Rasul and lived amongst them, there wasn't a day that they did not speak about him, we will never be able to love the Rasul (saws) the sameway as them, it was something ingrained in their hearts. Also keep in mind that this isn't the only day one can do this, one can do it any day and any night of the year, but keeping a specific day is convenient and it is a blessed day in particular.

What kind of people come to it?

[melo]

The reason that that particular day was chosen is because it is the one that has the most likelyhood and agreed upon by the majority of scholars who studied this. Like I said it is not an obligation in the deen to do so and anyone who says it says it out of excessive zealousness. The Sahaba saw the Rasul and lived amongst them, there wasn't a day that they did not speak about him, we will never be able to love the Rasul (saws) the sameway as them, it was something ingrained in their hearts. Also keep in mind that this isn't the only day one can do this, one can do it any day and any night of the year, but keeping a specific day is convenient and it is a blessed day in particular.

What kind of people come to it?

This is precisely my point. For holidays that haven't been legislated by the propher or the Sahabah, a specific date cannot be specified where celebrations take place yearly; celebrations that don't happen any other time of the year. That would be akin to turning the mawlid into an an actual religious ordinance, on the same level as the two eids. This is true about anything, even if the act (ie the mawlid) is good intentioned and could fit within the boundaries of the Sunnah.

I think we need a discussion on what bidcah actually entails. My understanding of bidca is of the above; things that haven't been legislated cannot be fixated or specified as holidays in Islam. You cannot for instance make the battle of badr an Islamic holiday.

Most of the people who come to these celebrations are people who ignore the Prophet's sunnah all year, and then come to these events as if they love the prophet saws.

[SultanOrder]

I get what your saying, but the thing is that it is not legislated in any shariah and I have never heard anyone make that argument. I am of those who don't believe that the sahabah or the Rasul (saws) did a mowlid like it is done now, nor do I believe it can be called a sunnah in the previous sense (because a sunnah doesn't necessarily have to be something the rasul (saws) or the sahaba did). And therefore it cannot be classified like the two eids whatsoever.

But if you keep in mind that most people are not exemplary muslims, they do not remember the Rasul as often as they should, they do not send salawat as often as they should and it is even hard to get most of them to come to the masjid for one salat of the day. But people from across the world have festivals at certain times of the year, which as a society they can all put down their day to day routines and come together. In this light for the maximum occupancy and greatest of blessings (which the more people the more blessings) it makes sense to mark a special day, and it is convenient when everyone does it together. It is the nature of groups and societies, and to say it is wrong is like going against the nature of groups and societies.

[samadoon-waaxid]

Shirib, what part of it is haram to you? If the Rasul recognized it as a blessed day and even fasted, and we muslims mark it in our calendar and stay within the lines of what is sunnah determined by the shariah, what is the problem with it?.[/b]

your argument is futile, and sterile bro. this was never a sunnah.did the prophet,his companions or even third generation muslims celebrate mawlid?
the answer is no, thus its an innovation.
case closed.

[grandpakhalif]

PO I think if I met you we'd be close friends

[SultanOrder]

Shirib, what part of it is haram to you? If the Rasul recognized it as a blessed day and even fasted, and we muslims mark it in our calendar and stay within the lines of what is sunnah determined by the shariah, what is the problem with it?.[/b]

your argument is futile, and sterile bro. this was never a sunnah.did the prophet,his companions or even third generation muslims celebrate mawlid?
the answer is no, thus its an innovation.
case closed.

Your argument is flawed, because not all innovation is bad. With that understanding one can say did the prophet and his companions go to North America, no, then it is bid'a to go to North America, Did the prophet and his Rasul fly in Airplanes then no it is a bida, Did the rasul use guns in jihad no, then it is bida, Did rasul speak english no it is bida, Did the prophet use electricity no, bida. If you narrow that to mean every innovation is bad, then we would not have moved forward as a civilazation and would of been stuck in the past. If you say that this is only in reference to the matters of worship, isn't everything part of the deen?
Can't we say that sahih bukhari, sahih muslim, sunan dawud, ibn majid, and all the other hadith collections are bida'a becaues they were done after the salaf as salihiin. Abubakar (ra) himself wrote down 500 hadiths before he decided that this was bid'a since the rasul never did it, and he burned it himself.

Our religion is compete at the time of the Sahaba because the foundations of the deen were set. And with those principles the ulema have deemed what is lawful and what is unlawful, what is blameworth and what is praiseworthy, and what is neither beneficial or harmful.

[samadoon-waaxid]

Shirib, what part of it is haram to you? If the Rasul recognized it as a blessed day and even fasted, and we muslims mark it in our calendar and stay within the lines of what is sunnah determined by the shariah, what is the problem with it?.[/b]

your argument is futile, and sterile bro. this was never a sunnah.did the prophet,his companions or even third generation muslims celebrate mawlid?
the answer is no, thus its an innovation.
case closed.

Your argument is flawed, because not all innovation is bad. With that understanding one can say did the prophet and his companions go to North America, no, then it is bid'a to go to North America, Did the prophet and his Rasul fly in Airplanes then no it is a bida, Did the rasul use guns in jihad no, then it is bida, Did rasul speak english no it is bida, Did the prophet use electricity no, bida. If you narrow that to mean every innovation is bad, then we would not have moved forward as a civilazation and would of been stuck in the past. If you say that this is only in reference to the matters of worship, isn't everything part of the deen?
Can't we say that sahih bukhari, sahih muslim, sunan dawud, ibn majid, and all the other hadith collections are bida'a becaues they were done after the salaf as salihiin. Abubakar (ra) himself wrote down 500 hadiths before he decided that this was bid'a since the rasul never did it, and he burned it himself.

Our religion is compete at the time of the Sahaba because the foundations of the deen were set. And with those principles the ulema have deemed what is lawful and what is unlawful, what is blameworth and what is praiseworthy, and what is neither beneficial or harmful.

lol,ok bro. i hope you realize that you comparing apples and oranges.all the examples u mentioned are worldly things, and innovations is the norm in worldly things.while mawlid celebrations are meant to be an act of ibada (cibaadah) thus we are not allowed to invent act of ibada after the prophet's death.
besides,who said there is such a thing as good ibada,u clearly missed the part in the friday prayer where the imam starts with saying " every innovation is a misguidance, and every misguidance is in the hell fire" which is a hadith sahih by the way.
thus there is no such a thing as a good innovation, and ur argument is still futile and sterile like I said earlier.

[Shirib]

I'm busy at the moment but I will respond shortly.

[SultanOrder]

classic scholar of Islam, Sheikh Muhammad Jurdani, who said:

"Beware of matters newly begun", distance yourselves and be wary of matters newly innovated that did not previously exist", i.e. things invented in Islam that contravene the Sacred Law, "for every innovation is misguidance" meaning that every innovation is the opposite of the truth, i.e. falsehood, a hadith that has been related elsewhere as: "for every newly begun matter is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell" meaning that everyone who is misguided, whether through himself or by following another, is in hell, the hadith referring to matters that are not good innovations with a basis in Sacred Law. It has been stated (by Izz ibn Abd al-Salam) that innovations (bida) fall under the five headings of the Sacred Law (n: i.e. the obligatory, unlawful, recommended, offensive, and permissible):
(1) The first category comprises innovations that are obligatory , such as recording the Qur'an and the laws of Islam in writing when it was feared that something might be lost from them; the study of the disciplines of Arabic that are necessary to understand the Qur'an and sunna such as grammar, word declension, and lexicography; hadith classification to distinguish between genuine and spurious prophetic traditions; and the philosophical refutations of arguments advanced by the Mu'tazilites and the like.

(2) The second category is that of unlawful innovations such as non- Islamic taxes and levies, giving positions of authority in Sacred Law to those unfit for them, and devoting ones time to learning the beliefs of heretical sects that contravene the tenets of faith of Ahl al-Sunna.

(3) The third category consists of recommended innovations such as building hostels and schools of Sacred Law, recording the research of Islamic schools of legal thought, writing books on beneficial subjects, extensive research into fundamentals and particular applications of Sacred Law, in-depth studies of Arabic linguistics, the reciting of wirds (def: Reliance of the Traveller w20) by those with a Sufi path, and commemorating the birth (mawlid), of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) and wearing ones best and rejoicing at it.

(4) The fourth category includes innovations that are offensive, such as embellishing mosques, decorating the Qur'an and having a backup man (muballigh) loudly repeat the spoken Allahu Akbar of the imam when the latter's voice is already clearly audible to those who are praying behind him.

(5) the fifth category is that of innovations that are permissible, such as sifting flour, using spoons and having more enjoyable food, drink and housing. (al Jawahir al-luluiyya fi sharh al-Arbain al-nawawiyya, 220-21).

I will conclude my remarks tonight with a translation of Sheikh Abdullah al-Ghimari, who said: In his al-Qawaid al-kubra, "Izz ibn Abd al-Salam classifies innovations (bida), according to their benefit, harm, or indifference, into the five categories of rulings: the obligatory, recommended, unlawful, offensive, and permissible; giving examples of each and mentioning the principles of Sacred Law that verify his classification. His words on the subject display his keen insight and comprehensive knowledge of both the principles of jurisprudence and the human advantages and disadvantages in view of which the Lawgiver has established the rulings of Sacred Law.
Because his classification of innovation (bida) was established on a firm basis in Islamic jurisprudence and legal principles, it was confirmed by Imam Nawawi, Ibn Hajar Asqalani, and the vast majority of Islamic scholars, who received his words with acceptance and viewed it obligatory to apply them to the new events and contingencies that occur with the changing times and the peoples who live in them. One may not support the denial of his classification by clinging to the hadith "Every innovation is misguidance", because the only form of innovation that is without exception misguidance is that concerning tenets of faith, like the innovations of the Mutazilites, Qadarites, Murjiites, and so on, that contradicted the beliefs of the early Muslims. This is the innovation of misguidance because it is harmful and devoid of benefit. As for innovation in works, meaning the occurrence of an act connected with worship or something else that did not exist in the first century of Islam, it must necessarily be judged according to the five categories mentioned by Izz ibn Abd al-Salam. To claim that such innovation is misguidance without further qualification is simply not applicable to it, for new things are among the exigencies brought into being by the passage of time and generations, and nothing that is new lacks a ruling of Allah Most High that is applicable to it, whether explicitly mentioned in primary texts, or inferable from them in some way. The only reason that Islamic law can be valid for every time and place and be the consummate and most perfect of all divine laws is because it comprises general methodological principles and universal criteria, together with the ability its scholars have been endowed with to understand its primary texts, the knowledge of types of analogy and parallelism, and the other excellences that characterize it. Were we to rule that every new act that has come into being after the first century of Islam is an innovation of misguidance without considering whether it entails benefit or harm, it would invalidate a large share of the fundamental bases of Sacred Law as well as those rulings established by analogical reasoning, and would narrow and limit the Sacred Laws vast and comprehensive scope. (Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jamaa, 145-47).

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/bida.htm

This is a good article, and explains things better than I do.

[samadoon-waaxid]

bro,i'm too lazy to read all that to be frank.summarize it or just give me a hadith or two, and I doubt u will find any hadiths in ur support

[SultanOrder]

bro,i'm too lazy to read all that to be frank.summarize it or just give me a hadith or two, and I doubt u will find any hadiths in ur support

[samadoon-waaxid]

bro,i'm too lazy to read all that to be frank.summarize it or just give me a hadith or two, and I doubt u will find any hadiths in ur support

sxb,dont kick me out dee.I'm really good at the shoulder lean dance and I got the vocals in case yall need me for next mawlid
and what kind of bariis you guys serve btw?

[melo]

I get what your saying, but the thing is that it is not legislated in any shariah and I have never heard anyone make that argument. I am of those who don't believe that the sahabah or the Rasul (saws) did a mowlid like it is done now, nor do I believe it can be called a sunnah in the previous sense (because a sunnah doesn't necessarily have to be something the rasul (saws) or the sahaba did). And therefore it cannot be classified like the two eids whatsoever.

But if you keep in mind that most people are not exemplary muslims, they do not remember the Rasul as often as they should, they do not send salawat as often as they should and it is even hard to get most of them to come to the masjid for one salat of the day. But people from across the world have festivals at certain times of the year, which as a society they can all put down their day to day routines and come together. In this light for the maximum occupancy and greatest of blessings (which the more people the more blessings) it makes sense to mark a special day, and it is convenient when everyone does it together. It is the nature of groups and societies, and to say it is wrong is like going against the nature of groups and societies.

What's your understanding of bidca walaal?