To Those Who Think I'm Qabiliste

[Voltage]

Murax, I get your premise but I disagree completely. The reason is Mubarak could leave just like Ben Ali and the events in Egypt will subside as they did immediately in Tunisia. Also, there were thousands and thousands of police on the streets who were all called back by Mubarak just so insecurity could reign thereby forcing the people to be beholden to his security. They call him the fox of the Middle East, he didn't keep control of Egypt by being stupid but as wily as a fox. Also, Jazeera reported that cadres of looters and those causing instability are actually state police who were strictly given orders to do so wearing plain clothes. Now I just read Al Jazeera has been black listed by the government and its press credentials "revoked".

[*Nobleman*]

Oi nobleman who's that guy on ur avatar? Don't ask why I'm asking

El-Hajj Malik El-Shabaz, better known as Malcom X

[Complicated19]

Are you SouthWestLegend?

[Voltage]

1058 In Cairo one protester tells Reuters news agency that most of those doing the looting are policemen. "We are protecting the country," Medhat Shaker says. "We arrested a police officer and group of policemen looting and the majority of looters are policemen, and you can ask the military troops if you do not believe me."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/9381309.stm

[BlackVelvet]

Dictators don't hand back power out of the kindness of their hearts. Mubarak could step down right now but he chooses to hold on to his seat and cause his country to be in a state of anarchy just so he doesn't lose his post. That is selfish, if the looting and destruction of Egyptian property is anyone's fault, it's his.

It's almost like you're saying disgruntled and cheated citizens, when governed by a dictator who refuses to step down, should just sit in the corner and think about how they didn't say good morning to their neighbour. Now that is bieng idealistic, when a mass of people have enough reason to resent a regime their passions take over and they demand change and change they will get. In the long run the cycle might repeat itself but this generation will have done its bit.

[BlackVelvet]

1058 In Cairo one protester tells Reuters news agency that most of those doing the looting are policemen. "We are protecting the country," Medhat Shaker says. "We arrested a police officer and group of policemen looting and the majority of looters are policemen, and you can ask the military troops if you do not believe me."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/9381309.stm

They showed a video of that on Al Jazeera, what a sad state

[gemini_snake]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." JFK

if mubarak cared about his nation or his people, he would leave peaceful but,instead, he has allowed the place to descend into chaos out of pure greed and selfishness. so whose fault is it really? the people for revolting or this tyrant for refusing to relinquish power?

btw, mubarak and his government are close allies of the so-called "enemies" that you listed so chaos in egypt will not increase their power or influence. in the long run, will this be worth it? yes,absolutely, because the people have made if clear that they will no longer live on their knees. it really doesn't matter who replaces mubarak, all that matters is that the next person knows that this will be their fate if they turn out to be like mubarak.

[ciyaal_warta]

Murax, I get your premise but I disagree completely. The reason is Mubarak could leave just like Ben Ali and the events in Egypt will subside as they did immediately in Tunisia. Also, there were thousands and thousands of police on the streets who were all called back by Mubarak just so insecurity could reign thereby forcing the people to be beholden to his security. They call him the fox of the Middle East, he didn't keep control of Egypt by being stupid but as wily as a fox. Also, Jazeera reported that cadres of looters and those causing instability are actually state police who were strictly given orders to do so wearing plain clothes. Now I just read Al Jazeera has been black listed by the government and its press credentials "revoked".

allah yakhaleek that wat is going on now...the police is doin damage so the peacefull demonstrators can look criminals

[Padishah]

What's wrong with el Baradei?

[Hyperactive]

And not look favorably towards the armed oppostition towards, MSB let Me assure You that it is out of 100% principality. Take for Egypt for instance, I am 100% against whats going on. Neighborhoods are without water, stores are being looted, National Artifacts (Egypts 100% source of revenue) being destroyed, People do not feel safe, homes being broke into, etc. etc. etc.

The only thing that is happening is legitamate problems (Corruption, Unemployment, Harsh economic conditions) is being compounded into anarchaic chaos. On top of that this opens the door even more for Israel and any other external party to gain more influence in Egypt and carve out bigger and bigger spheres of influence as the State gets weaker and weaker. Ditto for Pakistan and the "Islamic Opposition" that is wreaking havoc across the Country.

The bottom line is according to Islam Leaders are the reflection of the people. Egyptians in general are corrupt people and Hosni Mubaarak is a embodiment of that. Somalis are a divided tribal society and their Warlord leaderships are an embodiment of that. The best thing to do is to be patient, better Yourself, better Your family, those around You etc. and eventually bad rulers will go.

things will be worse before gets better. i agree 100% what's going on in Egypt, hosni needs to go. there's more qualified , well educated , politically mature in Egypt . people are civilized.

you cannot compare it to somalis.

[Salahuddiin]

I disagree 100% with this apathy and submission to tyranny. Phrase "bad government is better than no government" doesn't really fit into every single place, because chances of these countries becoming next Somalia are very minimal. Chaotic situation will be short and temporary and it even wouldn't be this bad without deliberate policy to create turmoil. As it happened in Tunisia, also in Egypt there are several cases of army or protesters arresting people who are robbing, looting or setting cars on fire and they are found out to be plain-clothed police officers or from the secret police. Purpose of this is to show the nation and international community that without the dictator whole country will be in chaos and protesters are just thugs and hooligans. It can also serve as an excuse to suppress the protests by using deadly force. Tunisians and Egyptians are quite unified and they won't turn into another Somalia, because many aspects that were the reason for Somalia's plight won't exist in these countries.

Cost of maybe few hundred dead and few weeks of uncertainty and fear is a small price to pay for freedom from tyranny and oppression for millions. There won't be an Islamic government in Egypt or Tunisia after overthrowing the regime, but at least a road to it can be opened. Dacwa and Islamic education don't have to be underground and Islamic activists don't have to be afraid of being thrown into prison without charge and tortured. Tens of thousands political prisoners will be freed and people don't have to be afraid of opening their mouths. Also if nation overthrows the regime, there won't be same kind of corruption because people wouldn't accept it anymore. Liberal state is better than tyrannical dictatorship without a doubt. In Egypt the situation was better than in Tunisia in religious freedom, but also there religious people are arrested and harassed quite easily. If you Murax lived in Tunisia and would be harassed by police if you pray regularly in the mosque and your mother would be slapped in the face and her hijab would be torn off and thrown to the ground by police while she was on her way market, would you still live as a coma-patient wishing that Mahdi will save us or our progeny after 500 years? If you had a study-circle with some friends gathering to study Qur'an or hadith together, you all would be arrested, tortured and jailed if police would find out. And they would find out if there would be anything religious in your speech or appearance because in this case you'd be followed. You would live in this kind of society eyes shut and die as a bitch? Nothing will ever change if people just lay down and wait, because Allah changes the situation through asbaab. Make an effort, lot of ducaa and have tawakkul in Allah.

Religious justification for accepting tyranny is not anything like you say. First off, scholars throughout the ages allowed rebellion against the ruler if he didn't rule by the shariica. Maslaxa and mafsada has rules and limitations and won't go in every situation and they will be judged by the scales of Islam and not by scales of duniya. For example religion can't be compromised by some worldly benefit. Hajjaj was confronted by some greatest Muslims of that time, for example sahabi Abdullah bin al-Zubair fought against him like many others and Saciid bin Jubeyr confronted him and was killed by him. Many made takfir against him even though he ruled by shariica, made jihad against kuffar, put tashkil into Qur'an so people can read it without mistakes etc. Hussein rebelled against Yazid, etc etc. History is full of Muslims resisting tyranny and scholars praising them.

Revolts in Tunisia and Egypt won't probably fix the economy and unemployment at least in short-term, but they decrease corruption, extra-judicial conduct by security forces and the elite, give people their freedoms in religious and worldly senses and in generally make life much easier and better for regular people in many different ways.

Syria is next, there is a plan to start similar protests in 5.2. and internet usage is already limited and interrupted by the regime as a preemptive strategy.

[abdalla11]

. Hajjaj was confronted by some greatest Muslims of that time, for example sahabi Abdullah bin al-Zubair fought against him like many others and Saciid bin Jubeyr confronted him and was killed by him.

Abdullahi Ibn Zubair didn't rebel against Al-Hajjaj, simply because Abdullah didn't fall under the rule of Governer Al-Hajjaj and his leader Abdulmalik ibn marwaan, the Ummayads caliph. Abdullah ruled together with his brother Muscab the Hijaaz region (mekka and Medinah). Abdulmaalik ibn Marwaan wanted to include the Hijaaz into his kingdom so he sent Al-Hajjaaj to Hijjaaz and Abdullah was simply defending his region, it was not a rebellion whatsoever.

[Salahuddiin]

. Hajjaj was confronted by some greatest Muslims of that time, for example sahabi Abdullah bin al-Zubair fought against him like many others and Saciid bin Jubeyr confronted him and was killed by him.

Abdullahi Ibn Zubair didn't rebel against Al-Hajjaj, simply because Abdullah didn't fall under the rule of Governer Al-Hajjaj and his leader Abdulmalik ibn marwaan. Abdullah ruled together with his brother Muscab the Hijaaz region (mekka and Medinah). Abdulmaalik ibn Marwaan wanted to include the Hijaaz into his kingdom so he sent Al-Hajjaaj to Hijjaaz and Abdullah was simply defending his region, it was not a rebellion whatsoever.

You're right as in ibn Zubair didn't rebel against established authority of Hajjaj, but he most certainly rebelled against the authority of Banu Umayyah as whole and that's why whole series of events is called revolt of ibn Zubair. Abdullah first rebelled against Yazid and took the authority of Hijaz declaring himself khalifa after the martyrdom of Hussein. Umayyad authority was also overthrown in Iraq, Egypt and some parts of Sham and ibn Zubair took authority there. Then basically Umayyads took back areas that were once under their authority and conclusion was Hajjaj's bombardment of Makka and ibn Zubair's martyrdom radiyallah canh.

[Leila25]

And not look favorably towards the armed oppostition towards, MSB let Me assure You that it is out of 100% principality. Take for Egypt for instance, I am 100% against whats going on. Neighborhoods are without water, stores are being looted, National Artifacts (Egypts 100% source of revenue) being destroyed, People do not feel safe, homes being broke into, etc. etc. etc. The only thing that is happening is legitamate problems (Corruption, Unemployment, Harsh economic conditions) is being compounded into anarchaic chaos. On top of that this opens the door even more for Israel and any other external party to gain more influence in Egypt and carve out bigger and bigger spheres of influence as the State gets weaker and weaker. Ditto for Pakistan and the "Islamic Opposition" that is wreaking havoc across the Country. The bottom line is according to Islam Leaders are the reflection of the people. Egyptians in general are corrupt people and Hosni Mubaarak is a embodiment of that. Somalis are a divided tribal society and their Warlord leaderships are an embodiment of that. The best thing to do is to be patient, better Yourself, better Your family, those around You etc. and eventually bad rulers will go.

How can you better yourself under the current regime? People are out on the streets because they believe they will be better off without Mubarak. You get the leader you deserve and Egyptians no longer want him, you cannot accuse them of being corrupt when they are rejecting corruption and humiliation.

It is an insult to compare the Egyptian people and their struggle to the Somalis.

[kadarre]

Murax, I get your premise but I disagree completely. The reason is Mubarak could leave just like Ben Ali and the events in Egypt will subside as they did immediately in Tunisia. Also, there were thousands and thousands of police on the streets who were all called back by Mubarak just so insecurity could reign thereby forcing the people to be beholden to his security. They call him the fox of the Middle East, he didn't keep control of Egypt by being stupid but as wily as a fox. Also, Jazeera reported that cadres of looters and those causing instability are actually state police who were strictly given orders to do so wearing plain clothes. Now I just read Al Jazeera has been black listed by the government and its press credentials "revoked".

. He actually has the shopkeepers and the upper class society fearing for their lives.