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Really interesting article

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bareento
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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:31 pm

Taking as example, one of the most powerful empire of its time; an empire who got access to the wealth the then two uper powers (byzantine and persia) accumulated over thousand years to the case of dirt poor third world countries!!!

The khalif had political liberty, he could do wat ever he wanted and the power to it!!!
The kalif can be generous he just looted the wealth of two super powers! he can levy tax as he wanted he had an army for it!
No foreign intervention!

Third world countries cannot access such power without being targeted as rogue states.

Gurey read some economics book!

B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:48 pm

your argument is political..

The byzantines and persia were broke, they just had a 12 year war, and all the gold was in Byzantium anyway, and what was captured or "Looted" from Persia
was but a fraction.

The khulafa al rashidun had very little captured gold to start with, the cause of the economic boom was the peace and saftey provided to the region and the various reforms i outlined in the last post.
third world countries simply need to follow some of the same policies that the developed countries have used, not the ones that they have been told to use.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:53 pm

Halleluya, Gurey just discovered that politics and economy goes together and interdepend!

Nice chat though :up:

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:56 pm

i see that you do not want to continue the discusion on how islam and the quran is relevant to todays economies.

Halleluya, Gurey just discovered that politics and economy goes together and interdepend!

Nice chat though


we cannot discuss, for e.g how to prevent outside forces namley the west and their instruments IMF/World Bank or even a Nato fighter bomber from
intervening and preventing your local reforms.

This is an entirely different subject to be discussed another time. :mrgreen:

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:01 pm

gurey25 wrote:i see that you do not want to continue the discusion on how islam and the quran is relevant to todays economies.

Halleluya, Gurey just discovered that politics and economy goes together and interdepend!

Nice chat though


Honestly u r one of very few people i enjoy discussing with on this forum!
May be u are amidst a spritual journey thats why i sens a lot irrationality in your reasoning 8-)

As for me, I believe today's problem need today's solutions!

Lets continue tomorrow!

B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:04 pm

:lol:

i am not on a spiritual journey, my beliefs are not only shared by muslims( i dont think most muslims understand it, and are as confused as you) but also by allot of non-muslims even athiests.

and they have been with me for the past 12 years, they are not new.

anyway..

tommorw then..

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:59 am

Gurey the economic powers that be will not stand for any economic independence. They want it their way or no way. Just look at the 1997 asian financial crisis and look what they (in the guise of speculators) did to the relatively autonomous economies of South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.

Besides, todays monetary system is heavily tied to the dollar, so unless you are saying we should all use gold dinars and silver dirhams, I don't know how an economy an be fully independent from the manipulating gaalo and their cover the "IMF". :|

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:17 pm

Gurey, if u r back from your journey, lets start with simple issue of interest rate!

Say I have 100 dollars, that I dont need for a year; and u r in a desperate need of 100 dollar, and u think u can pay me back in a year!
If I lend it to u, I am taking some risks... u might be dishonest, u might die, many things will happen!
Or u might not able to pay back because of your situation!

For all these RISKS i have to charge u something, say 5%! why ist a crime?

If there is risk there must be an incentive for taking that risk! If not I will keep my 100 dollars!
But If I am the only one in the market and I charge 75 % thats riba! because I am using my position to enslave some one!
its as simple as this!

This is simple logic of finance! finance is like blood irrigating body parts, it gives acces to money for those who have entreprenial esprit!
This logic can lead to flaws like in the case of the financial crisis, when pure blatant speculation a la Madoff was the norme!

As for the econmy of the growing countries, they r poor and not strong! they cannot change the world economic order, the best they can do
is to integrate the economic using every opportunity! Things are difficult but not imposible!

Take for instance our region, your "cousins" the Arabs have money, u guys are entrepreneurs and we oromos are known for our hard work!
Why cannt we make that place the mini china! we can start by assembling ampoules, little factories with no or little value added...and we can little by little integrate the world economic circuit!

Your countrymen from further south found their own way of itegrating the world economy circuit if i may say : high sea robbery!
its a way but is it a sustainable one?

Stop the mumbo jumbo wahabi allah-akbarism :D

B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:40 pm

This is no wahabism, wahabis are solidly on your side my friend, they are solidly with the west and they have no problems with the current kafir system, or they choose to completly ignore it and pretend its not there, even though our entire lives revolve and utterly depends on this kafir system.

You make a good point.. you lend me 100$ but why should you risk yout money without gain?
Surley you must get some compensation for carrying this risk, so a little interest on the principle amount it only fair right?

You are not thinking out side the box, this entire system depends on the nature of our money, what is our money?
what is a dollar or a euro?

The worlds financial system is the fractional reserve banking system, money is created by loaning it into existence by the central banks.
when you borrow $100,000 for a mortage for e.g the principle is created out of thin air and is stored as bytes in the computer system.
The the accumulated interest which at around 10% will be another $100,000 over 20 years or so is not created but you will have to go out into the world work your ass of compete with the rest of the borrowers in the world to collect it.

The lender in this case the bank does not really benefit the economy, he down not really take much risk either because there is always collateral.
This way those with money will keep getting richer and those who do not will keep getting poorer.
money is hoarded this way and with it comes political power as well.

Money is not = to wealth, money should be a means of exchange and not a store of value.

All the goods produced and traded will decay over time, but paper money was made not to be subject to these conditions, allowing those with allot of money
to live on the accumulated interest alone without contributing much to the growth real wealth and forcing those with little money the poor to contribute to the enriching of the rich.

allot of cultures in the past did very well for long periods of their history without interest.
Egypt for example, under the Pharaohs egypt was prosperous and was the largest grain exporter in history.
People were not payed in gold or silver , but used their grain as money.
grain was stored in state warehouses/silos and the farmer was given clay tablets with the value recorded, now the difference is here the interest was negative,
because the stored grain will decay and lose value over time due to mice , mould etc etc..
The clay tablets are returned every month and reduced in value.. This forces everyone to spend his money as quickly as possible and this keeps everyone employed..
Since people cannot keep their money hidden under their beds but have to spend them, they spend them on them selves, they spend them on their houses, their farms and gardens, irrigation works, the money for spectacular temples and other public buildings were found this way.

between the 12th century and mid 13th century the same occurred in northern Europe, the brackteaten system.
this was accidental because there was a shortage of precious metals, this lead to a mini renaissance and archeologists keep talking about how big and comfortable the houses of the common peasant in Europe was in this period compared to the period between the 13th and 19th centuries.
All the massive cathedrals are from this period.


In the Islamic world, the gold dinar and dirham were used, but because they are precious metals you can easily hoard them, and keep them hidden under your bed as a store of your wealth. you can also lend them out at interest becuase they will not decay.
The shareeca has allot of stringent regulations against hoarding of gold and mandatory zakat is levied on all stored gold along with the 2.5% zakat on everyone.
This meant that people were also here encourage to quickly spend their money instead of keeping it, and this insured that jobs were always plenty, and that people invested in long term economic good instead of short term gain.



Now you may argue that this hoarding of money can be positive, this accumulation of money is a small number of hands can be useful because those who control it can use it to invest in big and expensive projects that ordinary investors would not be able to invest in..
Like what happened in Britain during the Industrial revolution.
The financiers financed the major projects this way, but the cost was the massive accumulation of wealth and power in small number of hands,
and the impoverishment of millions.

Or you may even argue that interest is valuable for the same reason because it allowed Japan and the Asian tigers to use it under state control to
develop and modernize these countries. This was originally pioneered in the US under Alexandr hamilton and in germany, this was also how sweden, finland and austria among other industrialized.

They succeeded but the result is the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the state and those close to it.

Islam is against this concentration because it will lead to slavery eventually..
The pattern is clear , every single society that has had interest banking from Babylon to Athens have collapsed after they fell into extreme authoritarian.

Why do you think Aristotle came out against usury? he has seen it in his own lifetime how most of Greece changed from a society of free land owning men, to a
society of 3 levels the slaves, the semi -slave dependent serfs who were indebted to the money lenders and landowners and the extremely rich.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:04 pm

Though I do admire your vast culture, I fail to see u proving that the existence of interest rates necessarly leads to bankrupcy!

Frenzic speculation can lead to bankrupcy;

Wats ironic is that the only regime in recent history, who fought to its best against wealth being accumulated into few hands were the soviets, and they didnt abolish the interes rates!

As for everything being computerized it is no big chnage since the adoptions of gold as a "money", paper replaced it and as u beautifully put it some bits in the computer replaced it! thats all! as long as people r ready to give it vaue its ok! wat counts is not their intrinsec value, its the value we give them!!! as such gold metal is useless if not wat we give it as value!!

U seem to do not grasp finance and only focussing on big economic thoughts!
U r like the purist who when they hear the word love directly equates it to aids :D

By lending my 100 dollar to say an oromo women, he can make some business earn more than the interest I ask for and make her family happy!
If u reject this method wat do u propose! let her die of hunger!

I agree with u on Wahabbiis, they r jokes

B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:15 pm

you can lend 100$ to a poor oromo woman at 5% interest a relatively low rate, and she can use it to buy materials to make baskets or whatever that she can sell for profit and earn a living, she may even be able to pay the 5% interest along with the principle in the future..

You benefit from interest, she benefits from access to your capital and she can earn a living.

everyone wins right?

My question is why should you earn money by sitting on your ass, while the poor woman works her ass off day and night to pay you back the extra money.

You may think that this is the natural way, but why should it be..

As i said in my extremely disorganized post above , if you look at the evolution of money, the nature of money, you can
change the way money works, so that lending that 100$ free of charge without interest will benfit you as much as it will benefit the borrower..
Society wins in the end..

P.s the soviets had the unfortunate luck of having marx as their prophet and marxism as their religion.. if they were more pragmatic like the koreans and taiwanese for example they could have done much better economically.
They were as equally centrally planned economies as the soviets and both sued interest banking.
one was a failure the others amazingly successful.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:28 pm

gurey25 wrote:you can lend 100$ to a poor oromo woman at 5% interest a relatively low rate, and she can use it to buy materials to make baskets or whatever that she can sell for profit and earn a living, she may even be able to pay the 5% interest along with the principle in the future..

You benefit from interest, she benefits from access to your capital and she can earn a living.

everyone wins right?

My question is why should you earn money by sitting on your ass, while the poor woman works her ass off day and night to pay you back the extra money.

You may think that this is the natural way, but why should it be..

As i said in my extremely disorganized post above , if you look at the evolution of money, the nature of money, you can
change the way money works, so that lending that 100$ free of charge without interest will benfit you as much as it will benefit the borrower..
Society wins in the end..

P.s the soviets had the unfortunate luck of having marx as their prophet and marxism as their religion.. if they were more pragmatic like the koreans and taiwanese for example they could have done much better economically.
They were as equally centrally planned economies as the soviets and both sued interest banking.
one was a failure the others amazingly successful.


Com on gurey, u r being idealist!!!
I, as Bareento, the nicest and the most idealistic person could lend for free, for the sake of society benefit 8-)
but why would an average joe lend for free?
U see there r no real alternatives!!!

As for the poor lady If I was not there she and her children will dye of hunger :ugeek: i even demand going to heaven for my lending :D
I agree there might be some elements of exploitation yet...

The islamic way which says lend money without interest is uneconomical!!!

Gurey, every society has economics laws and finance that suits it best! we can admire
ancient egypt economic structure, but we cannot transpose it to today!!!

Its my opinion that many of economic problems of third world countries originates in the third world itself! which is good news a it means we can solve it ourselves.
B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby gurey25 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:42 pm

you are missing the root of the problem..

i suggested changing the role and nature of money,
then the scenario where you lend 100$ and interest free and still profit becomes possible..

it is not idealism, this is how the majority of societies through the world and throughout history have done things.

just because the current system developed in Europe and was imposed on everyone else through colonialism, it does mean it is the only way.

I also ask you this question, why should we have financiers? why do we need the role of a financier, someone who lends money for profit and profits from interest.

I suggest eliminating the role of the financier completely.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

sounds even more crazy doesnt it.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby bareento » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:28 pm

Hmm u r a communist :o

Finance helps bringing money to those who will invest! remember the oromo woman we took as example!
the finance will help her have access to my money 100 DOLLAR

Gurey, deep in yourself u r a communist :up:

You make me remember one of my communist teacher who always used to give as this example:

Imagine an entrepreneur:
he invests money and produces some commodity and sells it and make profit;
he always used to ask us where comes that profit from!
he used to say calculate oll the cost! raw material, workers salary..

His answer was the only way the profit comes is that the he hasnt paid the workers wat he should pay them!!! thus the profit, the plus value, is the exploitation of the worker.

On this lets continue tomorrow!

I will highly appreciate if u advise some books on ancient egyptian economy, or any interest free economy

B.

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Re: Really interesting article

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:05 am

gurey25 wrote:you are missing the root of the problem..

i suggested changing the role and nature of money,
then the scenario where you lend 100$ and interest free and still profit becomes possible..

it is not idealism, this is how the majority of societies through the world and throughout history have done things.

just because the current system developed in Europe and was imposed on everyone else through colonialism, it does mean it is the only way.

I also ask you this question, why should we have financiers? why do we need the role of a financier, someone who lends money for profit and profits from interest.

I suggest eliminating the role of the financier completely.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

sounds even more crazy doesnt it.



Then who would finance major economic and infrastructure projects like building a steel plant, nuclear facility, dams, lend money for the starting small-scale and large-scale businesses, car manufacturers, consumer electronics manufacturers etc.?


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