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I disagree to the notion that only islam can unite it! It is the same arguments used by beheaders and tyrants in the arab world.

Many peaceful countries did not turn to religion in order to develop. If we want somalis(a) to rise from its ashes we need to abandon this stupid god called tribalism; you can only do that if you can think independently.

That's what it is, everyone wants to cling on to their qabiil when they fuck shit up, imagine a Somalia where motherfuckers think twice before they do anything stupid instead of thinking their clan will save them.

everywhere in the world have tribes even in europe so i dont think there is anything wrong with it infact it is beneficiall in many ways but we somalis twisted it in to something negative

everywhere in the world have tribes even in europe so i dont think there is anything wrong with it infact it is beneficiall in many ways but we somalis twisted it in to something negative

Agree emphatically !!!!!!!!!!


Tribe is just community which has become genetically linked over time, together with their slaves, assimilated foreigners and closely linked allies. In the West, they will usually have a religious base: the Catholics, the Quakers, the Mormons, the Jews etc. While nepotism and corruption, even lynching, have been part of the western political scene forever, the West has developed means for avoiding the worst excesses, namely constitutional government, frequent elections, and one-man one vote. Checks and balances. There's nothing magic about it.

MSB's generation moved out of Miyi, got educated in languages and specific limited fields and rushed to the international stage without ever becoming an "urban" society. They still operated as separate clans, with separate interests. The big deal even today is a national capital trying to function within an Hawiye degaan. That isn't going to work.

You have two choices, another dictator like Assad or Gadhaffi or MSB, together with his dominant tribe and the nepotism and corruption that goes with that, or construct a constitution with enough checks and balances to make one-man one vote work.

There is nothing innately wrong with tribe or the 4.5 formula. It's how you stick the 4.5 together that is critical.

Grant, although your heart burns for somalia (you were in Somalia as far back as 1966) your response shows that you are either naive or simply want somalia to remain as it is today. It is not uncommon for non-somalis to swallow the so called pros of tribalism; it is an economic net; it is a social net, it bonds bla bla and other kinds of stuff promoted by tribalism.

If you believe that tribalism will stop at the so called 4,5 you are mistaken. This 4,5 suddenly become 35, then 2000, then 5 million units.

My friend, what you are suggesting is a dictatorship based on tribalism.

Why do you deny us somalis the right to progress? to develop? to become like other nations?

Why are you promoting that we worship this evil god?

You are right on one point thought; that the stage from camel herdirng to urbanism was quick and that could have played a major part.

everywhere in the world have tribes even in europe so i dont think there is anything wrong with it infact it is beneficiall in many ways but we somalis twisted it in to something negative

Some European people do have tribes, but they are mostly in eastern of Europe, the most poorest area whole of Europe. Even if tribalism has become benefial in some ways, it would be still bad because it would limit our progress to first world country and people will have another reason to hate on people and that is tribalism.

[quote="globetrotter2"
My friend, what you are suggesting is a dictatorship based on tribalism.
.[/quote]

Trotter,

My point was that the West is as tribal and partisan within the national states as is Somalia. The West has just worked out better ways for dealing with the conflicts and minimizing the nepotism and corruption. We have been urban longer.

The states that we see developing in Somalia have tribal bases, but are mostly alliances of related or neighboring tribes. They aren't just one single tribe. I believe they are a step in the right direction, with the next step being federation. The notion that qabiil must break down politically into smaller and smaller units is just not the case. An issue like Somaliweyn can unite a people in an endeavor like your much-vaunted 1970-77 period. It is failure and non-inclusion that drives wedges between the clans.

Federation does not imply dictatorship. On the contrary.....

Haxxor,

Ever hear of the Welsh or the Scots? The Sinclairs or the McLeods? How about the Walloons or the Frisians or Bretons? You kid yourself if you think the Mormons are not a tribe.

Dear Grant,

I notice that you are equating tribalism with federalism.
Why do you want us to remain a primitive society based on tribalism when the rest of the world have progressed?
1970-1977 was the golden period of Somalia simply because we had put tribalism to sleep.


You don't want to see a somalia built on the institutions of democracy?

Comparing somali tribes to Scots and Welsh (or as you did awhile back to Mormons, amish etc) is laughable.

I am in UK, and I know for a fact that Welsh and Scots don't have the same loyalty to their tribe as we do. Hell, they don't even care about tribe anymore.

I am in UK, and I know for a fact that Welsh and Scots don't have the same loyalty to their tribe as we do. Hell, they don't even care about tribe anymore.

Haxxor, true. Grant wants to equate somali tribes with nations.

Dear Grant,

I notice that you are equating tribalism with federalism.
Why do you want us to remain a primitive society based on tribalism when the rest of the world have progressed?
1970-1977 was the golden period of Somalia simply because we had put tribalism to sleep.


You don't want to see a somalia built on the institutions of democracy?

Comparing somali tribes to Scots and Welsh (or as you did awhile back to Mormons, amish etc) is laughable.

Trotter,

There is no difference between the Scots or Amish or any Somali tribe worth it's salt. Check out the Scots' clans or the subdivisions of the Amish. They all work the same. qosol ma aha. And the Somali clans ARE nation-states. The difference is that the Amish have been subject to an outside state from their beginning, and the Scots and Welsh have been "allies" to the Monarchy for so long the tribe has expanded functionally to include them. Hell, the Prince of Wales wears Scots' tartan.

The UK is composed of what? Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and England, which was itself a conglomerate of tribal kingdoms. Backward? Ok. Maybe just longer together.

1970-77 was when the tribes came in from the bush. The economy was in bubble mode, subsidized to the hilt by a Cold War participant who had a global interest in the Berbera Port. It was artificial. It was unreal. And, even so, the tribes did not go to sleep. Which was a good thing, because they had no other way to cope when the bubble burst.

Get over it. Somali tribes are not unique, and getting past a tribal experience is not the answer. Eliminating the greed and corruption is.

A tribe is defined as a society(individuals) who share a common culture, language, rituals etc. FYI somalis share one language, one common culture.

You cannot compare somalis to scots, irish, and what have you.

Ever hear of the Celts? How about Gaelic? The Druids?

Ever hear of the Celts? How about Gaelic? The Druids?

Celts existed in... Uh, about 2,460 years ago. Gaelic is language, or collection of Gaelic people, has nothing to do with tribalism. Druids existed around same time as Celts did.

I beg of you one thing, go back to school.

The fitnah will not begin to cease, until people openly admit their clan heroes committed crimes.

The fitnah will not begin to cease, until people openly admit their clan heroes committed crimes.

Proof?