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Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

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bareento
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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby bareento » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:27 pm

Citing Bukhaari when discussing modern day complexe finance and economics is foulish to say the least.
The first step is to analyse objectively the situation, then see if it essentially evil.

The answer is no, interest rate, even if in its wildest its harmful, is not evil!

I dont really understand why the Almighty subxaana wa tacaalaa would be offended if I buy a house and pay it with a hard work of 20 years!

Inspired Dagoes would outlaw anything if they believe it will increase the number of houris they will have in Jannaa!
wat is the credibility of these people! They are not speaking for the common good ...they are formulating an opinion keeping an eye on the number of houriis!

B.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Shirib » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:43 pm

bareento,

Say you bought a house on interest of course. And then u start paying it back, its a 20 year agreements. And for the 18 years u make ur stead payment, and by this time u already paid back the principal. But after that u fall sick, lose ur job or what not and are not able to make your monthly payments. Few months pass by and u are unable to make the payments. So the lender comes in, and kicks you out of your house reclaiming. He also keeps all the money that you have been paying him for the last 18 years, which is more than the original loan itself btw. Now you have no house and the lender keeps all that money also, and is free to resell your house to another person.

Now answer me this question....Is that scenario fair?

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby arabmtu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:51 pm

So the lender comes in, and kicks you out of your house reclaiming. He also keeps all the money that you have been paying him for the last 18 years, which is more than the original loan itself
This recently happened to millions of Americans, including many Somalis. There's no baraka in what Allah outlawed; it eventually hurts you.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby bareento » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:56 pm

bareento,

Say you bought a house on interest of course. And then u start paying it back, its a 20 year agreements. And for the 18 years u make ur stead payment, and by this time u already paid back the principal. But after that u fall sick, lose ur job or what not and are not able to make your monthly payments. Few months pass by and u are unable to make the payments. So the lender comes in, and kicks you out of your house reclaiming. He also keeps all the money that you have been paying him for the last 18 years, which is more than the original loan itself btw. Now you have no house and the lender keeps all that money also, and is free to resell your house to another person.

Now answer me this question....Is that scenario fair?
Its a caricatural description brother Shirib!

After 18 years if u can no longer pay back, the bank will sell the house to recover its money....if the price of the house has increased u might even end up gaining something!
The present day crisis is not because people are not able to pay ...its because the price of the house has shrinked!

Anyway, even if your description were right, is it a reason to put me in fire? thrown to eternal fire just because i wanted to have a house ...and a banker took advantage of me? just read in full description the punishment of riba ...and then u will understand wat I mean

B.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Teeri » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:56 pm

bareento,

Say you bought a house on interest of course. And then u start paying it back, its a 20 year agreements. And for the 18 years u make ur stead payment, and by this time u already paid back the principal. But after that u fall sick, lose ur job or what not and are not able to make your monthly payments. Few months pass by and u are unable to make the payments. So the lender comes in, and kicks you out of your house reclaiming. He also keeps all the money that you have been paying him for the last 18 years, which is more than the original loan itself btw. Now you have no house and the lender keeps all that money also, and is free to resell your house to another person.

Now answer me this question....Is that scenario fair?
Its a caricatural description brother Shirib!

After 18 years if u can no longer pay back, the bank will sell the house to recover its money....if the price of the house has increased u might even end up gaining something!
The present day crisis is not because people are not able to pay ...its because the price of the house has shrinked!

Anyway, even if your description were right, is it a reason to put me in fire? thrown to eternal fire just because i wanted to have a house ...and a banker took advantage of me? just read in full description the punishment of riba ...and then u will understand wat I mean

B.
its easy for me to sit here and judge you bro, but you seem like a reasonable man. i will just state the facts.

riba is evil, its not just harmful. also its not a simple case of you taking a loan and giving back extra . its the incentives riba creates that is so destructive. if you were able to grasp have of one of the fundamental laws of economics: Division of Labour, you would agree with why your lord band riba.

also, when you watch TV you will hear a million arguments of what caused the recession, this and that: the simple truth is the riba system based on this causes boom and bust. everything they are trying to control now was band by the prophet, yes even naked short selling was band by the nabi before humans even invented it. so were derivatives and bonds and non tangible Futures trading. Islam is advanced and knew what will come because it was created by God.

also, riba has 72 different evil manifestations: the prophet scw said the riba manifestations with the least evil is like sleeping with your mother just across the Kaaba. now tell me if that is not evil?

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Lamagoodle » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:49 pm

Dear Teeri,
I am a Somali whose knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence is limited. I have not taken any Islamic classes on issues relating to economics. Whatever I know on this subject has been passed on to me by the Somali clergy who do not know the basic tenets of economic theory i.e. western economic thinking. Or what I have observed. In my view, many Somalis equate interest rates with usury which is not necessarily the same.

My knowledge of economics and other social science could be argued to be profound. Yes, economic theory is flawed and to use Karl Popper, it is easy to detect anomalies. It is also the case that there is hardly a free market out there. But, there is a market that sets the rules of the game. This market does not adhere to religious provisions and permeates into the activities of individual households, governments and firms. Thus, those claim that there is an Islamic finance or a solid approach to financing a business endeavour, facility, homes etc are liars/hypocrites. Islam is used by many entrepreneurs and governments to “lure” innocent people who do not question the sheikhs that tell them.

Economic applications (note there is a difference between economics as a science and economic applications) is reality; if you live in a modern world, you are inclined to be part and parcel of an economic systems in which the rules are set by the market.

In my opinion, we have two choices; if we want to engage in any transactions, there are no alternatives than the prevailing one. If we want to be careful, then the best solution is not to be part of the system.
Simply put it saaxib; it is a complex interconnected system in which institutions and actors follow the market.

Again, I want to reiterate that we have to be careful of the concepts we use when we are making an argument; Do you mean interest rates =usury? Economics= economic science? Market= free market?
In my world, there is hardly any usury in the market place; economic science is based on assumptions while economic s is observable empirically and finally there is a market out there; whether it is free or not is debatable and has been the subject of discussions for many centuries.


NoAngst is right in every point.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby gurey25 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:16 am

Let me try to understand this you are saying that this is this entity called the market that is a natural phenomena and is whats sets the criteria for all economic
activity.
You are also trying to differentiate between the concept of a "free market" and the "market"

I am stating that the market is ambiguos and its boundaries cannot be determined in an objective way, which means that economics is not a science like physics but a POLITICAL EXERCISE.

If the boundaries of what you are studying cannot be scientifically determined , what you are studying is not a science.

This means that this entire conversation is more of a political debate.

On one hand we are informing you about what the prophet muhammed scw and allah have said about the nature of riba.
It is upto you to follow this advise or not, you are born a free person.
You cannot make excuses for your continued participation in xaraam.

Islam prohibits all forms if riba, islam also prohibits all forms of speculation.
Imaam Malik and his student imaam shaafici have both written extensively about this, and imaam malik spent considerable time and effort
highlighting all the different loopholes in the use of interest and gave his judgement on them too.

Furthermore yoou have said that there is no alternative to the status quo,
i tell you that there are dozens of alternatives.
Last edited by gurey25 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Shirib » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:21 am

gureey,

can u recommend any readings Islamic or not, on the other solutions? or just good reads in general about the topic. I would like a more Islamic perspective.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby gurey25 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:22 am

In my opinion, we have two choices; if we want to engage in any transactions, there are no alternatives than the prevailing one. If we want to be careful, then the best solution is not to be part of the system.
Simply put it saaxib; it is a complex interconnected system in which institutions and actors follow the market.
Your current system is not natural or universal, there are no natural laws there are the rules created by those who create this system
It is outside of the fold of islam, deen, and as muslims we do not even want to be part of this system.

No my friend there are alternatives , there are choices, and we can choose not to engage in xaram.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby gurey25 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:29 am

gureey,

can u recommend any readings Islamic or not, on the other solutions? or just good reads in general about the topic. I would like a more Islamic perspective.
I would recommend the al muwatta of imaam malik.
Look for the english translation.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Lamagoodle » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:22 am

Gureey,
You are being driven by a desire to find ways (read loopholes) out than a rational and logical approach. What other alternatives are there? Animal husbandry? Farming and fishing without any exchange? I have mentioned that. Ka soco.

You are not providing a counter argument; you cite me wrongly; your concepts are not well defined and sometimes cover different spectra. Classical fadhi ku dirir talk my friend.

I guess you have fallen prey to a discourse which is not based on reality; far fetched and sometimes doctrinal.

Adios

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby gurey25 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:45 pm

Au contrair my friend, i have already answered you in my first post, and teeri has explained it better and in more detailed.
For all your talk of logic and rationality, it is you that believes that this Kaafir western system is a natural phenomena.
That this "market" you speak of objectivley defines the rules of this system and that it is natural..

You claim to be an economist , i have observed that there is not much economic history taught in most schools today,
this explains the complete lack of perspective and constant dogma sprouted by economists today.

You also clearly have an issue with Islam and organized religion in particular, with your references to animal husbandry etc.
You believe that religion is a private thing, and not for society.

There are many alternatives, we do not have to engage in riba, i am using riba becuase it is a far more comprehensive than usury
it includes all the 72 different forms and all forms of speculation.

Today's interest based economy is relatively new, it is about 500 years old.
for most of human history it was a fringe practice.

There are alternatives for fractional reserve banking, there are alternatives for interest based currency.

If you are sincere we can discuss them and you can present your criticism

but you will have to refrain from using the magical "market"

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Lamagoodle » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:52 pm

Au contrair my friend, i have already answered you in my first post, and teeri has explained it better and in more detailed.
For all your talk of logic and rationality, it is you that believes that this Kaafir western system is a natural phenomena.
That this "market" you speak of objectivley defines the rules of this system and that it is natural..

You claim to be an economist , i have observed that there is not much economic history taught in most schools today,
this explains the complete lack of perspective and constant dogma sprouted by economists today.

You also clearly have an issue with Islam and organized religion in particular, with your references to animal husbandry etc.
You believe that religion is a private thing, and not for society.

There are many alternatives, we do not have to engage in riba, i am using riba becuase it is a far more comprehensive than usury
it includes all the 72 different forms and all forms of speculation.

Today's interest based economy is relatively new, it is about 500 years old.
for most of human history it was a fringe practice.

There are alternatives for fractional reserve banking, there are alternatives for interest based currency.

If you are sincere we can discuss them and you can present your criticism

but you will have to refrain from using the magical "market"


we can only discuss if you:
1) refrain from quoting people incorrectly
2) leave your utopic world from discussions that concern modern society
3) leave religious dogma out of this
4) provide an example where islamic banking/finance works in practice
5) become receptive to other views
6) stop pretending that you have a monopoly on opinions.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Teeri » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:35 pm

Au contrair my friend, i have already answered you in my first post, and teeri has explained it better and in more detailed.
For all your talk of logic and rationality, it is you that believes that this Kaafir western system is a natural phenomena.
That this "market" you speak of objectivley defines the rules of this system and that it is natural..

You claim to be an economist , i have observed that there is not much economic history taught in most schools today,
this explains the complete lack of perspective and constant dogma sprouted by economists today.

You also clearly have an issue with Islam and organized religion in particular, with your references to animal husbandry etc.
You believe that religion is a private thing, and not for society.

There are many alternatives, we do not have to engage in riba, i am using riba because it is a far more comprehensive than usury
it includes all the 72 different forms and all forms of speculation.

Today's interest based economy is relatively new, it is about 500 years old.
for most of human history it was a fringe practice.

There are alternatives for fractional reserve banking, there are alternatives for interest based currency.

If you are sincere we can discuss them and you can present your criticism

but you will have to refrain from using the magical "market"


we can only discuss if you:
1) refrain from quoting people incorrectly
2) leave your utopic world from discussions that concern modern society
3) leave religious dogma out of this
4) provide an example where islamic banking/finance works in practice
5) become receptive to other views
6) stop pretending that you have a monopoly on opinions.

I am willing to learn from you, but like i said, you have to try and open your mind.

you can actually learn a lot from Gurey, the guy is well versed, just from the way he is talking.

an economist muslim friend of mine once asked his old class mates what money is and where it came from. none could answer, what Gurey just wrote, if you were to understand the deep concept, I can assure you that most humans on the face of the planet have no idea, i mean the guy is say there are alternatives for the fraction reserve banking.

really, how many people have you heard of it or how many can actually explain it to you in detail and its historic back ground? i would say approach 1000 people, but that is too much, i urge you to approach 15 people and ask them if they know what fractional reserve banking is? if our elected politicians dont know this, its mainly with in the central banking elite, investment banking economists and really well versed economists.

lets put our egos aside and learn from each other. i am not just saying there are alternatives, i am saying their were alternatives, like our friend Gurey, we just need to learn real historical economics.

thanks to real economic knowledge, Egypt under Islam invented the worlds first university,, performed the first world eye surgeries, Egypt was so rich thanks to the real economic market with out riba, if you offered someone zakah, they will refuse.

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Re: Owning 'haram' companies' shares/stocks is halal ?

Postby Teeri » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:59 pm

gureey,

can u recommend any readings Islamic or not, on the other solutions? or just good reads in general about the topic. I would like a more Islamic perspective.
I can do better. I will recommend a website to you that will build you basic economics from the ground up.

if you went to school any where in the planet and you studying economics, there is a very strong chance you either learned Keynesian economics or Chicago school (Harvered is well known for Keynesian)

if this is the case, ignore everything you have been thought about competition, money, minimum wage and its effects, trade and the firm etc.

this school of though is called the Austrian economic school and its origins is in the Salamancan school of 1500s Spain, only ignore one thing: the theory of interest, the Salamancan school developed and accepted riba in the 1700s after some heavy pressure, before this it deemed it haram but every other part of its theories is practically Islamic like price control, competition, property rights, money etc. ( price control in Islam is not allowed, the prophet scw refused to sanctioned it so if you hear some radical approach to the topic that is not what you were force fed, dont panic :P )

you will learn some fascinating stuff, and read things like how Marx was influenced by the first communist on the planet, (12th century Italian, communists) and how he picked up the idea, how the European Jews and banking elite came to dominate the western world, how Roman died because it destroyed her currency, competition and the origins of the firm, the mercantilists etc

you will learn from great economists such as Ludviq von mises, Murry Rothbard, henry hazlett, lew rockwell, gary norths, F A hayek etc.

also their economics doesn't contain maths, its real economics where humans matter rather then empirical crap.

http://www.mises.org,
lew rockwell website,


if you are in the UK, go to the Cobden center, the Adam smith institute or the Institute of economic affairs,

for Islamic economics i would recommend Tarek El-Diwany, author of ''the problem with interest'' i have met him, very knowledgeable, also grap his book for £8 from amazon, the best investment you will ever make in economics.

dont rush, take it slowly, practice and learn real world economics and when it comes to riba, learn from the best Islamic economists. keep in mind 97% of economics is the same, its only the Riba part. after all we Muslims discovered and wrote down the laws of economics first.

http://www.mises.org,

Tarek El-Diwany author of ''the problem with interest ''

good luck with your knowledge search


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