Islam Religion and Politics

[gobdoon]

I think We should seperate the 2 if We have to be a modern Muslim country , and that is how it used to be in Somalia for a long time , if you want Cabud Allah by all means do it and there is nothing wrong with it , obviously you got a muslim state but politics should be seprate from religion , and We must stop the fanatics and mad people like Alshabab and people who killed 15 people in Paris because some people said or wrote some thing unislamic We have no right to end their live violently as majority of muslims in the west do and the basics of democracy in the west is I have the right to offend you , so We must abide the laws of our host countries or else we may as well back our bags and go back to our origional countries.

[TheMailMan]

Politics should be separate from Religion? You do realize that this concept is a Western invention which arose during the "Enlightenment period" in the 18th century as a result of the religious wars between the Catholics and Protestants in Europe right? So basically you're taking a Western political concept and trying to enforce that on Somalis, although we Somalis are free from religious conflict (in the sense that we're all Sunni Muslims) and thus have no need for such radical Western approaches to society.

Islam and Political Governance are inseparable. In fact, Western political systems seek to replace the Rule of Allah with the Rule of Men. Where men are the ultimate arbiter of what's permissible and impermissible. Men make the choice of what's allowed and what's not allowed. And since men's sentiments change with time, so do the laws. Hence you see in America, alcohol was prohibited in the 1920's but it is legal today. Marijuana was illegal in the USA but now it's becoming legal in several US States (Colorado and Washington). Some American states have the death penalty and some don't. Some American states legalized gay marriage, whereas some didn't. 50 years ago, it was ILLEGAL in many US States for a Black man to marry a White woman. But now, interracial marriage is permitted today.

Laws based on men's desires change with time, although the morality which underpins these laws never change. As human nature doesn't change.

Allah SWT, in all his Wisdom, has legislated laws for mankind to follow. And these laws are known as the Shariah. And Shariah is a comprehensive legal, economic, political and social system which touches upon all aspects in life. True tawheed, true submission to Allah lies upon not only worshiping Allah in private....but also following His guidelines in public. Hence, Islam by it's very nature cannot tolerate a secular system. We are Muslims, we follow the Shariah and we worship Allah. And we prefer the legislation of Allah over the legislation of fallible men.

[Machiavelli2]

This is a great thread and I hope we sincerely exchange viewpoints and opinions and enlighten one another without resorting to seef la boodnimo. I apologise to the OP gobdoon because I couldn't understand his reasoning. But I have few questions for Brother Mailman. These questions aren't based on objecting to Shariah on blanket form and accepting Secularism blindly, it is all about timing and interpretations. Questions like, are the Somalis ready for Shariah Laws? Whose interpretations do we have to follow?

Islam and Political Governance are inseparable. In fact, Western political systems seek to replace the Rule of Allah with the Rule of Men.

Can we ask ourselves if there exists a Muslim country ruled with the "Rule Of Allah SWT"? There are many who claim that they do, but the disappointing reality is, it is merely a mechanism set-up for dictatorships and corrupt dynasties to thrive and rule the people with half baked Shariah laws. Where and when will Somalia suddenly discover these enlightened and Allah SWT fearing leaders who will dispense the "Rule Of Allah"? If these societies with better knowledge in religious and worldly than us still struggle in imposing a proper Shariah on themselves, what are our chances? Or is any form of Shariah acceptable whether it is half baked or not?

Where men are the ultimate arbiter of what's permissible and impermissible. Men make the choice of what's allowed and what's not allowed. And since men's sentiments change with time, so do the laws. Hence you see in America, alcohol was prohibited in the 1920's but it is legal today. Marijuana was illegal in the USA but now it's becoming legal in several US States (Colorado and Washington). Some American states have the death penalty and some don't. Some American states legalized gay marriage, whereas some didn't. 50 years ago, it was ILLEGAL in many US States for a Black man to marry a White woman. But now, interracial marriage is permitted today..

Alcohol, marijuana and tribal wars banned by Islam are widely consumed by the elite who are untouchables and we Somalis who are nearly all Muslims practiced cruel and devastating wars and continue to do so. The most worrying aspect is when you see highly respected Somali religious scholars issuing fatwas left and right for the benefit of their respective tribes. Trust in these Sheikhs is lost. In some places in the Arabian Gulf, an Arab woman isn't allowed to marry a foreign Muslim man. In some countries women aren't allowed to drive cars. These countries claim their objections to be purely based on Shariah and justify it by quoting from our Islamic text, Quraan and Hadith. Isn't this only reinforcing the prevailing local culture when it suits the political needs of the local rulers? We, Somalis claim to believe the equality and fraternity of all Somalis, but the majority will shun marrying an honest and god fearing Madhibaan person. How could this be enforced through shariah? Even in cases of female circumcision, religious opinions range from some arguing it is obligatory and others dismissing as forbidden. Whose interpretation should we follow? The dude from our tribe or the dude from their tribe?

Allah SWT, in all his Wisdom, has legislated laws for mankind to follow. And these laws are known as the Shariah. And Shariah is a comprehensive legal, economic, political and social system which touches upon all aspects in life. True tawheed, true submission to Allah lies upon not only worshiping Allah in private....but also following His guidelines in public. Hence, Islam by it's very nature cannot tolerate a secular system. We are Muslims, we follow the Shariah and we worship Allah. And we prefer the legislation of Allah over the legislation of fallible men.

For arguments sake, let us say if we need to raise good Muslims by conviction and through their own choice and not by the fear of punishment by the State, is it possible to have a secular state that can facilitate the possibility of religious piety of its citizens because of their honest conviction without secular society? Can a Secular State co-exist with a non-secular society like in Somalia?

[Nolol cusub]

Politics should be separate from Religion? You do realize that this concept is a Western invention which arose during the "Enlightenment period" in the 18th century as a result of the religious wars between the Catholics and Protestants in Europe right? So basically you're taking a Western political concept and trying to enforce that on Somalis, although we Somalis are free from religious conflict (in the sense that we're all Sunni Muslims) and thus have no need for such radical Western approaches to society.

It is more complex than that.

Politics is no go zone. In its purest state it is driven by greed, ambition, constant strive for exhuastable resources. To move things forward, you either need to expand and manage the resources wisely or improve the moral fabric of the society. You guessed it, it is the latter role that religion is to step in by providing legal and moral framework.

This is the risk.


Natural politics is too powerful to be assimilated. Rather it consumes everything in its path including religious reformers. You can argue that the major reason why Islam stayed in its purest form through out the centuries is the foresighted of its religious fugures . Islamic institutions like Madrasah, Masjids, Universities, legal training centers have all developed independently of political institutions. None of the leaders of legal schools, major figures, Hadith collectors have held an office in successive Islamic dynasties. Their biggest concern was to preserve the religion from internal innovation or external threats. Al-Ghazali remarkable insights into human reasoning and interest as it relates good and bad widened the gap between natural politics and religion. MAN IS NEVER TO BE TRUSTED.

Western experience

Their religious figures and institutions have folded to natural politics, functioning more like a rubber stamp throughout the centuries until Western citizens got tired of them and demanded the separation. Muslims on the other hand have stayed away from politics as their insights into natural politics grew.


Responding to the challenge of Western Capitalism/imperialism: The two front war


1. Conquering and assimilating natural politics within the context of Islam (something majority of Muslims have failed to do so far)


2. Rising to the challenges of Western Capitalism.



Can you do both at the same time?


This is the challenge of the Muslims in this century.


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