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The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby SummerRain » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:43 am

The interminable weekly debate :lol:

At this rate, the Muslim world might witness more controversial sects in contrast to Wahhabism/Salafism. The discourse on reformation is not new either, and will never go away. Its inutile to point fingers and debate who practices the "right" Islam. Those who are keen on going that path clearly have their own agenda. Scholars desperably need to contextualize and interpret the religion in form that is relevant to Muslims today and their issues. Islam is timeless and needs no reform; however, we need to work on understanding what and why we are here and how to be bette ambassadors of Islam in every aspect of life.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Lamagoodle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:44 am

There are no good deeds without Islam. Anyone who lives his life without worshipping or even acknowledging his Creator has wasted his life. And it's foolish to consider your subjective opinions as being universal moral frameworks. It really doesn't work like that buddy, you can't have it both ways.

Islam is the worship and submission to your Creator, and living your life according to His guidelines.
I think you are on point. But, I have a question. I am assuming that submission is an individual mechanism. It is you - the self- that will either go to hell or heaven. If that is the case, why do people care about what others do. The problem is that many Somalis spend alot of their precious submission time, on condemning others instead of submitting.

You'd notice people caring more on what others do than what they do, and therein lies the problem of wahabism/salafism. It is all about what others do

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby LiquidHYDROGEN » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:48 am

Liquid, actually, most of the islamic scholars and generals were non-arabs.
I know. One of the great ironies is that the greatest thinkers and theologians in Islamic history are all Persians.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:50 am

Allah , says:

Qul Innama Ana Basharan Mithlukum Yuhaa Ilayya Anama Ilaahukum Ilaahun Waahid. Faman Kaana yarjuu Liqaa'A Rabbihi Fal Ya'mal Amalan Saaliha. Walaa Yushrik Be Ibaadati Rabiihi Ahada


" Say: "I am but a man like you, [but] it has been revealed to me that your God is One God: So whoever desires to meet his Lord, let him do righteous deeds and let him not associate any partners with his Lord in his worship" (Qur'an 18:11)


Surah Furqan Allah Says


Wa Qaddimna Ilaa Maa Amilu Min Amalin Fa Ja'alnaahu Habaa'an Manthuura

And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed.


Muslim reports, on the authority of Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allaahu Anhu) in a marfoo' form, the following Qudsi narration: "I am Independent of all the partners (ascribed to me). Whoever performs a deed while associating partners with Me, I will leave him and his Shirk."

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Lamagoodle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:50 am

Liquid, actually, most of the islamic scholars and generals were non-arabs.
I know. One of the great ironies is that the greatest thinkers and theologians in Islamic history are all Persians.
North Africans and the many other africans who were denied a place in the annals, not to mention the far east

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:57 am

Liquid, actually, most of the islamic scholars and generals were non-arabs.

I was told that b4 1987, no books from saudi arabia were allowed into Somalia. Almost all the scholarships offered by Saudi Arabia to somalis went to somalis from the NFD and Somali galbeed; that is why salafist/wahabi sheikhs (old ones) comes from that part of East Africa.

This cancer has metastasised and nowadays almost all somalisa are followers of this cult. In the spirit of wahabism, every somali you see is a wahabist; every somali you see is more concerned with your dress code, where you put your willy, sex etc instead of what is in your mind.

It is superficial islam.


P.s., you will notice that the wahabi members of these boards would soon cite the godfathers of this cult e.g.Ibn Taymiyah to sell us wahabism


May Allah protect us from superficial Islam. Allah says "Yaa Ayyuhal Ladeena Aaamanu Udhulu Fisilmi Kaafah". Oh You who believe enter the Religion completely.

Not just picking and choosing the parts We like. Sadaqa, Being good to the Parents, Visiting the sick, Being there for the need of Your brother, Being kind to Your relatives, Not lying, cheating, taking what is not Your right, not insulting, oppressing,being humble, having Hyyah (Dignity) etc. Just like the Ayah says in Surah Israah "Ina Haadal Qur'aana Yahdee Lil Latee Hia Aqwam" Verily this Quran leads to what is better.



Don't get the impression that I am acting like I'm someone on any better pedestal than anybody here. However, loving of the Sahaba the companions is a VERY CRITICAL affair. Like the saying says:


Go to a Jew and ask Him who the best in mandkind were after Moses? They'll say the companions of Moses
Go ask a Christian who the best in mankind were after Eesa (Jesus)? They will say the companions of Jesus.
Go ask SOME Muslims who the worst of mankind were in Your Religion they will say the companions of Mohamed SAW or a particular few.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Lamagoodle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:11 am

Murax, there are thousands of competing religions around the world. Each one thinks that it is the right religion. Each one is based on what happens in the afterlife. More arguments than my religion is the right one is needed when selling your religion.


Before, the onset of salafism/wahabism, islam was not an issue that was up for discussion among the somalis; we were muslims. There was no condemnation; there were no suicide bombers; our religious leaders were wise men who used wisdom and a methodology that eludes the new ones. Nowadays, every idiot is a wadaad. Our wadaads do not even speak the somali language when preaching. They lie (check the video of that crazy weirdo who claimed that there are hundreds of somali HIV Incarcerated in the UK and elsewehere); you have also Sheikh Umul condemning a fellow scholar to death for writing a book (mind you, he did not even read it). The salafists/wahabists have turned our people into fanatics who care more about clothing, sex and the discourse of gaalo-this and gaalo that. Even on these boards, you have young men and women who have been seduced by the wahabi message.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:12 am

The interminable weekly debate :lol:

At this rate, the Muslim world might witness more controversial sects in contrast to Wahhabism/Salafism. The discourse on reformation is not new either, and will never go away. Its inutile to point fingers and debate who practices the "right" Islam. Those who are keen on going that path clearly have their own agenda. Scholars desperably need to contextualize and interpret the religion in form that is relevant to Muslims today and their issues. Islam is timeless and needs no reform; however, we need to work on understanding what and why we are here and how to be bette ambassadors of Islam in every aspect of life.


Honestly Sis, That's the lazy way to go about it. The real way is it is waajib upon ALL of us to know the Religion and SEEK KNOWLEDGE. Its simply not like a career path where You can pursue or not pursue. Allah swt said "Fa'lam annahu Laa Ilaaha Ilallah Wa staghfir Li Thembik". LEARN there is no God but Allah and seek forgiveness for Your sins. Al Bukhaari one of the greatest scholars of all time said "The path to knowledge comes before action or speak". There is Ilm Al Fareedah (Compulsory knowledge) That We all must know i.e Tawheed, Aqeeda, Conditions of Salaah, Pillars of Sallah, Destroyers of Salaah, Tahaara (Purification) Wudu, etc. This knowledge is Fard (Obligatory). You have Ilm Al Kifaayah Which is not obligatory and this is a lot of the advanced Fiqh issues, and other types of knowledge that are extra. Even in this type of knowledge as Muslims We must be greedy in not just seeking the bare minimum but wanting to learn more.

Case in point this issue of the OP, these are very basic principles it shouldn't be a "Debate" but issues that We have very firm understanding and grasp on which means proof from Quran, Sunnah. The sad thing is say We wanna discuss macroeconomics or trade We will use sources from different scholars and texts and have "Educated discussions". When We discuss matters of Religion its just a "Debate". This shows what We really prioritize and have respect for and what We don't. May Allah save us all.
Last edited by Murax on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:21 am

Nowadays, every idiot is a wadaad. .


This I agree. To be honest whether it is the person You mentioned such as Sh Umul (I fundamentally do not follow some of His views) but in general bro it is from the Adaab of Islam to stay away from pointing out individuals or talking about different groups of Muslims. The Prophet SAW would see someone doing something and would go on the Minbar and say "What is it with the people who do such and such". Whether it is Somalia or elsewhere Muslims today are in a horrible situation because they left even the most basic parts of the Deen. The Prophet SAW said there will be 73 sects, all will enter Hell except one, when asked which one He said the ones that are upon what I and My companions are upon. The Prophet SAW didn't say a particular group. At the end of the day We came in this world alone and we leave this world alone. Its upon each and every one of us to ask Allah for guidance and take care of ourselves. Honestly, that's all I want to do and I see many things here that sometimes I want to comment on but I don't. I honestly entered this thread because the Hadeeth said "Balligu Anni Walau Ayah" Convey My message if even one Ayah. I just wanted to enter this thread not to debate but to simply pass on whatever benefit I could and also to benefit from other's knowledge.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Lamagoodle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:27 am

Murax, muslims have a war to win; to win back islam from the wahabi/salafi zealots. What is needed is the islam that was tolerant, the islam that advanced science, social cohesion and individual submission.

Not the islam that is superficial (sex, dresscode, condemnation, blame etc).

P.s. Leftist is one of the posters who makes sense. Almost all the others who discuss these issues have been influenced by wahabism/salafism. I do not know much about islam.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Shirib » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:32 am

These Martin Luther characters are all out of wack. They're the same as the people they are criticizing. Wahabism is all based around rejecting the madhabs and saying we're going to ignore centuries of Islamic scholarship because we need reform. This is the exact premise of Wahabism. On the other hand Martin Luther over here is on the same trip, forget what the scholars have said and agreed upon for the last 1,400 years, cause jee golly, I know far better than them cause I live in the enlightened 21st century, we need reform.

So yeah, Abu Talib is in hell, and we know this cause Allah's Messenger saw told us. Who is Leftist to change this fact.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:35 am

These Martin Luther characters are all out of wack. They're the same as the people they are criticizing. Wahabism is all based around rejecting the madhabs and saying we're going to ignore centuries of Islamic scholarship because we need reform. This is the exact premise of Wahabism. On the other hand Martin Luther over here is on the same trip, forget what the scholars have said and agreed upon for the last 1,400 years, cause jee golly, I know far better than them cause I live in the enlightened 21st century, we need reform.

So yeah, Abu Talib is in hell, and we know this cause Allah's Messenger saw told us. Who is Leftist to change this fact.
Narrated Al-Musaiyab:
When Abu Talib was in his death bed, the Prophet went to him while Abu Jahl was sitting beside him. The Prophet said, "O my uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, an expression I will defend your case with, before Allah." Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Umaya said, "O Abu Talib! Will you leave the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib?" So they kept on saying this to him so that the last statement he said to them (before he died) was: "I am on the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib." Then the Prophet said, " I will keep on asking for Allah's Forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so." Then the following Verse was revealed:--

"It is not fitting for the Prophet and the believers to ask Allah's Forgiveness for the pagans, even if they were their near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire." (9.113)

The other Verse was also revealed:-- "(O Prophet!) Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He will ......." (28.56) (Sahih Bukhari 5.223. also Sahih Bukhari 2.442, Sahih Bukhari 6.197, Sahih Bukhari 6.295)
Muhamamd claimed that Abu Talib is spared the bottom of Hell Fire because of him:
Narrated Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib:
That he said to the Prophet "You have not been of any avail to your uncle (Abu Talib) (though) by Allah, he used to protect you and used to become angry on your behalf." The Prophet said, "He is in a shallow fire, and had It not been for me, he would have been in the bottom of the (Hell) Fire." (Sahih Bukhari 5.222. also Sahih Bukhari 8.227)
In another hadith, however, Muhammad was not so sure, but instead was only hoping that his intercession will allow Abu Talib to escape worst punishment:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
That he heard the Prophet when somebody mentioned his uncle (i.e. Abu Talib), saying, "Perhaps my intercession will be helpful to him on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow fire reaching only up to his ankles. His brain will boil from it." (Sahih Bukhari 5.224. also Sahih Bukhari 8.569)

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:36 am

Shirib,

I guess We're supposed to just forget Quran and Hadeeth, its just old. After all We are in 2015.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Lamagoodle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:42 am

Shirib,

I guess We're supposed to just forget Quran and Hadeeth, its just old. After all We are in 2015.
I don't think that is the issue saaxib. I think you are utterly wrong. No one, not even Shias want to forget the Quran. The Hadith is another issue because there are thousands of them (some of them, I am told, contradict each other). The problems are 1) context; under what circumstances? uurisprudence/ precedents 2) Interpretations; whose interpretation of available literature is the right one?.

As I see it, from a somali context, both context and interpretations are salafi/wahabi bound nowadays.

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Re: The Messenger's Uncle is not going to Hell, Murderous tyrants will.

Postby Murax » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:53 am

Shirib,

I guess We're supposed to just forget Quran and Hadeeth, its just old. After all We are in 2015.
I don't think that is the issue saaxib. I think you are utterly wrong. No one, not even Shias want to forget the Quran. The Hadith is another issue because there are thousands of them (some of them, I am told, contradict each other). The problems are 1) context; under what circumstances? uurisprudence/ precedents 2) Interpretations; whose interpretation of available literature is the right one?.

As I see it, from a somali context, both context and interpretations are salafi/wahabi bound nowadays.

Bro, everybody is responsible for themselves. We entered this world alone, and We will leave it alone. I want a good happiness, comfort in the grave and Jennah. My Deeds are short for the journey right now, but I know in My heard 100% that the only deeds that Allah will accept from Me or anyone are deeds that are sincerely for His sake, and in accordance to the revelation to the Prophet SAW. You can think How You want and I can think How I want, nobody is forcing anybody here but Allah is the ultimate judge.


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