Welcome to SomaliNet Forums, a friendly and gigantic Somali centric active community. Login to hide this block

You are currently viewing this page as a guest. By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics, ask questions, educate others, use the advanced search, subscribe to threads and access many, many other features. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join SomaliNet forums today! Please note that registered members with over 50 posts see no ads whatsoever! Are you new to SomaliNet? These forums with millions of posts are just one section of a much larger site. Just visit the front page and use the top links to explore deep into SomaliNet oasis, Somali singles, Somali business directory, Somali job bank and much more. Click here to login. If you need to reset your password, click here. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Daily chitchat.

Moderators: Moderators, Junior Moderators

Forum rules
This General Forum is for general discussions from daily chitchat to more serious discussions among Somalinet Forums members. Please do not use it as your Personal Message center (PM). If you want to contact a particular person or a group of people, please use the PM feature. If you want to contact the moderators, pls PM them. If you insist leaving a public message for the mods or other members, it will be deleted.
OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE
User avatar
AbdiWahab252
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 56693
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:00 pm
Location: Unity. Strength. Capital.

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby AbdiWahab252 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:03 pm

Grant,

I think Maay is a separate unique language . Maxatiri is a pidgin Maay corrupted by Arabic, Hindi,

User avatar
gurey25
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 19323
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: you dont wana know, trust me.
Contact:

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby gurey25 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:31 pm

The situation between Maay and Maxaa tiri is that of between northern and southern French, the langue 'doil (Northern French) and langue d'oc (southern French). Northern and southern French both strongly identify as French, and for political reasons both are considered dialects of French, however a speaker of Normaund dialect cannot understand a speaker of Provençal dialect. This isn't that big of a deal since they both learn Parisian dialect in school (Standard French). This issue is compounded by the fact that French is a dialect continuum, everyone can understand the neighboring dialect, just not one from very far away.

Language vs dialect is ultimately more about politics than about language. Scanian dialect of Swedish for instance is only slightly different from standard Danish, and is closer to Danish than Swedish, Sweden conquered it from Denmark about 350 years ago. Swedish and Danish are themselves very similar, and for political reasons Scanian is considered a Swedish dialect and not a Danish one (except by Danes). Maay is basically the dialect continuum between Somali and Borana, which was probably the same language about 1500-2000 years ago, and has been slowly diverging ever since.
when do you think maay and maxatiri diverged?
and when do you think somali languages like maay and maxatitri diverged from borana.
i think 2000 years is too recent.

occupation and lifestyle is very important, for example nomadic languages evolve very slowly do to the importance of poetry and communication
while settled people develop dialects and accents more frequently.

and lastly i am very interested in camels, their geneology, how does the somali camel compare to the arabian camel, or a beja camel?
and when did it enter our lands and when did we leave cows for the camel, this event is probably the crucial point where we diverged from other custhic groups primarily the oromo.

User avatar
Djiboutian
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby Djiboutian » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:53 pm

The situation between Maay and Maxaa tiri is that of between northern and southern French, the langue 'doil (Northern French) and langue d'oc (southern French). Northern and southern French both strongly identify as French, and for political reasons both are considered dialects of French, however a speaker of Normaund dialect cannot understand a speaker of Provençal dialect. This isn't that big of a deal since they both learn Parisian dialect in school (Standard French). This issue is compounded by the fact that French is a dialect continuum, everyone can understand the neighboring dialect, just not one from very far away.

Language vs dialect is ultimately more about politics than about language. Scanian dialect of Swedish for instance is only slightly different from standard Danish, and is closer to Danish than Swedish, Sweden conquered it from Denmark about 350 years ago. Swedish and Danish are themselves very similar, and for political reasons Scanian is considered a Swedish dialect and not a Danish one (except by Danes). Maay is basically the dialect continuum between Somali and Borana, which was probably the same language about 1500-2000 years ago, and has been slowly diverging ever since.
when do you think maay and maxatiri diverged?
and when do you think somali languages like maay and maxatitri diverged from borana.
i think 2000 years is too recent.

occupation and lifestyle is very important, for example nomadic languages evolve very slowly do to the importance of poetry and communication
while settled people develop dialects and accents more frequently.

and lastly i am very interested in camels, their geneology, how does the somali camel compare to the arabian camel, or a beja camel?
and when did it enter our lands and when did we leave cows for the camel, this event is probably the crucial point where we diverged from other custhic groups primarily the oromo.
Langues d'oïl, Langues d'oc and Franco-Provençal are dielects not languages. Any French speaker won't have problem understanding it.

There is no such thing as Maxa tiri. It is called Af Somali " Somali language ".

Maay is not a dielect but a language. In where I come from, even those who never went to school can understand a bit of Arabic but no way they can understand Maay language. Maay speakers were Somalized recently.

P.S. Somali language didn't exist 2000 years ago.

User avatar
Grant
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 5845
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:43 pm
Location: Wherever you go, there you are.

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby Grant » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:47 pm

Grant,

I think Maay is a separate unique language . Maxatiri is a pidgin Maay corrupted by Arabic, Hindi,
Actually, except for the politics, I am fairly certain Maxaatiri is a dialect of Maay. It's that Rahanweyn group that has all the linguistic diversity. The Somali group doesn't show up historically until about 1300.

I totally agree with Gurey about the significance of the camel in Somali history. I have not been able to nail it down, but I doubt the beginning of camel culture in Somalia goes back 3000 years as some books say. What I have heard is that the northern clans were part of the rahanweyn who adopted the camel to take advantage of grazing at a distance from water where cattle could not go. Makes sense, but I don't know of any proof.

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:18 pm

The situation between Maay and Maxaa tiri is that of between northern and southern French, the langue 'doil (Northern French) and langue d'oc (southern French). Northern and southern French both strongly identify as French, and for political reasons both are considered dialects of French, however a speaker of Normaund dialect cannot understand a speaker of Provençal dialect. This isn't that big of a deal since they both learn Parisian dialect in school (Standard French). This issue is compounded by the fact that French is a dialect continuum, everyone can understand the neighboring dialect, just not one from very far away.

Language vs dialect is ultimately more about politics than about language.
Couldnt have said it better myself. For political reasons somalia should be wise and only make it into dialect. I dont see the problem with keeping it as a dialect. like the examples many people displayed of other countries doing the same thing. Like Cantonese & Mandarin etc.

Sometimes i wonder if there is any consideration in that western concept of diversity & multicultralism bullshit they alwayse preach about.
This would create just resentment , disunity and disloyalty and a total lack of social cohesion.

I mean are they mad? do somalis seriously want to commit suidide? We are one of the few free nations who don't endorse this multiculturalism bulshitt.

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:50 pm

Grant,

I think Maay is a separate unique language . Maxatiri is a pidgin Maay corrupted by Arabic, Hindi,
People officially lost the plot when they said Af Maxa is an unpure of shot of Maay . Having some "Hindi and Arabics" does not make Af Maxa "Corrupted " in terms of what matters such as morphology (from what I know) and the general root features of the language, it is not mixed because in what actually matters and what linguists actually study about a language to establish its language branch and family; Somali is solidly Cushitic. The words in a language don't decide what language family or branch i

1. Somalis migrated from north to south, not south to north. So it makes sense that the original language is spoken in the northern regions.
2. May tiri is generally spoken by one clan. If it is the original, then why did all the other clans disown it?

Here listen to this, its sounds just like Af Maxa Tri with a twist. I could i actually understand alot of it.

User avatar
Grant
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 5845
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:43 pm
Location: Wherever you go, there you are.

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby Grant » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:13 pm

Mighty,

The present figure who most closely applies the concept of ignoring the Minorities is Ahmed Madobe, who got special mention in the UN Monitoring Group's report for 2015. As more studies like those of Kuusow, Eno and Besteman come out, the more difficult it will be for political figures like this to monopolize power. Once Kenya leaves or the Gosha arm, the Middle Juba at least will revert to something closer to one man-one vote, which has to be good for stability and progress in the region.

The lie that has said for too long that Somalis are all the same and speak the same language has to go. The truth is that Somalia has long been a multi-cultural country with multiple languages. Denying that is just continuing to hold everyone back.

And no. The current thinking is that the northern clans went north before they came south.

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm

"The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.

The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. "

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:33 pm

Mighty,

The present figure who most closely applies the concept of ignoring the Minorities is Ahmed Madobe, who got special mention in the UN Monitoring Group's report for 2015. As more studies like those of Kuusow, Eno and Besteman come out, the more difficult it will be for political figures like this to monopolize power. Once Kenya leaves or the Gosha arm, the Middle Juba at least will revert to something closer to one man-one vote, which has to be good for stability and progress in the region.

The lie that has said for too long that Somalis are all the same and speak the same language has to go. The truth is that Somalia has long been a multi-cultural country with multiple languages. Denying that is just continuing to hold everyone back.
So basically this divide is pushed by Bantus? So Now i get it this push for Af Maay being a seperate language is the Bantus plot in convincing how Non Somali Raxanweyn is.

It is not a lie Somalis are very much homogenous with varations of the same culture. You just now displayed & proved how this language classification is less to do with being different more to do with political leverage and control over the Southern land and resources.. Somalia is a homogenous country Af maay in the eyes of Majority shall be classified as a dialect part of Af Soomaal.

The Same way with french Dialects and chinese dialects . There is no Denial!1. You should live with the fact that there is no agreed upon census to seperate a language from a dialect and its purely political.


Why even ignore it many of the intellectuals you posted are not even raxanweyn neither Speak Af Maay


"
And no. The current thinking is that the northern clans went north before they came south.

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm

The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.

The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D.
Now you posted a long disproven theory, that got thrown in the the trash bin after archeological discoveries down north. Somalis migrated from the northern Somali peninsula.

Not withstanding some previously-presented hypotheses on origin of the Somalis, Somalia is a
six millennia-old nation that has been occupying the Somali Peninsula throughout the time of its
history. Even the last and most accepted one of these hypotheses which originates the Somali
from Omo-Tana region cannot be valid anymore, and it is not logical even, because of various,
ignored accounts.

These accounts clearly suggest that the ancestral home of the Somalis was the northern part of
the Peninsula with the Peninsula always being inhabited by the Somalis.1
In one of the recent

studies on Somali history in general and reassessments of Omo-Tana story in particular, an
intimate authority has announced:
“this hypothesis cannot be taken uncritically because cave paintings, dating back to 9,000 BCE,
found in northern Somalia, as well as studies of ancient pyramids, ruined cities, and stone walls
confirm that an ancient civilization thrived here at least from the late Paleolithic or Stone Age…
along with the fact that the ancient Kingdom of Punt once flourished within Somali borders’…
‘Somalia is a nation with a history that stretches back more than ten millennia to the beginnings
of human civilization’.”2
I have come to a similar conclusion on the question over six years ago. Somalia is one of not so
many countries around the world in which a population change has never been indicated, and any
sign of a noticeable substratum has not so far been observed genetically, linguistically, and
anthropologically. There is no evidence for south-emanated expansion toward the north, but
there are evidences for the opposite. The largest lexical statistics, and other linguistic standards,
from various Afroasiatic languages are used in a forthcoming comparison for reconstructing the
Somali history


http://www.wardheernews.com/wp-content/ ... Shidad.pdf
Last edited by TheMightyNomad on Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:45 pm

Grant

Ok Pro Bantu booy. Lets play your game. Prove to me how classifiying Mandarine and Cantonese as dialects of same language is holding the chinese people back and how classifying Normaund a dialect is holding french back.

Last time i checked both those countries are prosperous and socially cohesive.

infact if Japan classified Riyukyuan a different language and China classified Cantonese a different language they wouldn't have been as socially cohesive and stabile as they are otherwise. This is a fact.

If countries preached multiculturalism they would be like the shitty hell hole India were ethnities have frequent conflict because of percieved differences in culture.

Diversity for the sake of Diversity is stupid. Multiculturalism is a hinderance to progress.
Last edited by TheMightyNomad on Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Djiboutian
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby Djiboutian » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:16 pm

Regarding Prof. Mansuur first video

1- He claimed Musa Haji Ismail Jalal is not linguist. If he is not, who is?

2- As for Gandi, which one he is talking about? Mohamed Abdi Mohamed "Gandhi", the former President of Jubaland, or Yusuf Ismail Samatar "Gandhi", Minister of Education in Somali Republic 1962-1964? The latter is from the north and I don't think he ever talked about Maay Maay language.

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:32 pm

Regarding Prof. Mansuur first video

1- He claimed Musa Haji Ismail Jalal is not linguist. If he is not, who is?

2- As for Gandi, which one he is talking about? Mohamed Abdi Mohamed "Gandhi", the former President of Jubaland, or Yusuf Ismail Samatar "Gandhi", Minister of Education in Somali Republic 1962-1964? The latter is from the north and I don't think he ever talked about Maay Maay language.
1- Musa Haji Ismail Galal was a Polymath like Osman Yusuf Kenadid basically a writer more of a historian not a certified linguist

2- dunno the discussion was about Intellectuals, not politicians.

User avatar
Grant
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 5845
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:43 pm
Location: Wherever you go, there you are.

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby Grant » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:10 am

Mighty,

:) It seems that Mr Said M-Shidad Hussein is also an expert in the prevention of Somali droughts:

http://english.alshahid.net/archives/22442

His writing is utterly laughable and without merit. If he has any academic standing at all, I have been unable to find it. I suggest you try the Library of Congress piece again.

Of course the archaeological discoveries in the North are exciting, but there is no necessary connection to Somalis, who didn't reach the Red Sea coast until the first century. If you check the Egyptian portrait of the queen of Puntland you will notice that she has pronounced Steatopygia, absolutely not a Somali trait. The indigenous people of the Horn when the Somalis arrived were the Bon or Boonta. These became the Midgan , Madhibaan, and other despised minority groups.

http://madhibaan.org/faq/faq-history.htm
http://madhibaan.org/

The Somalis are relative latecomers.

James Dahl
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 5212
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:05 pm
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Contact:

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby James Dahl » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:48 am

Gurey you are exactly right, the adoption of camel pastoralism was a hugely important event in Somalia, perhaps someone should do a genetic genealogy study on Somali camels to determine when they diverged from Arabian camels?

Maxaa Tiri is heavily influenced by Arabic, which sped its divergence from Maay and Borana, which also makes it very difficult to date precisely when this divergence happened. Languages can stay the same for centuries then change very rapidly, due to events, so this is why looking at languages as something that changes slowly and evenly over millenia you get an unclear and inaccurate picture.

For an example let's look at English. "Old English" is a phase referred to by linguists of the period when the Saxons, Angles and Jutes landed in England around the year 450, and the invasion of the Normans in 1066. In the roughly 600 years in England their language changed very little, and Saxons in England and Saxons in north Germany could understand one another. After the Norman French conquered England, the language rapidly changed. I as an English speaker can understand with difficulty Chaucer, written in the 14th century, but I cannot understand Old English at all, so the language virtually did not change for 600 years, then completely changed in 300 years, all due to the influence of French.

Arabic had a similar dramatic influence, I believe, on Maxaa Tiri. I believe that this occurred between 1500 and 1000 years ago and was due to the spread of Islam. The Ajuuraan jihads in the south against the Warra Daaya did not take place until much later, around the year 1300. So this is where my "guesstimates" come in.

Estimate of divergence between Borana and Somali/Maay/Rendille speakers: 2000 years ago, reason being change in lifestyle, adoption of Camel pastoralism over Cattle pastoralism.
Estimate divergence between Somali and Maay/Rendille speakers: 1500-1000 years ago, reason being influence of Arabic due to spead of Islam
Estimate of divergence between Maay and Rendille speakers: 700 years ago, reason being Ajuuraan conquest of southern Somalia

User avatar
TheMightyNomad
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:47 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby TheMightyNomad » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:56 am

Mighty,

:) It seems that Mr Said M-Shidad Hussein is also an expert in the prevention of Somali droughts:

http://english.alshahid.net/archives/22442

His writing is utterly laughable and without merit. If he has any academic standing at all, I have been unable to find it. I suggest you try the Library of Congress piece again.

Of course the archaeological discoveries in the North are exciting, but there is no necessary connection to Somalis, who didn't reach the Red Sea coast until the first century.
Loool Your Bantu Professor Eno Can't even write proper english. Kusow and Enow need an editor, their paper has really terrible grammar.
So dont come and try and dis prof Mr. Said M-Shidad Hussein. If all you got is empty ad Homiinems then there is no validity in what you say.

Archeological & linguistical evidence comfirm that there has been no migration to northern somalia, . Instead from North to West and South. The Omo Tana is no longer a valid theory. for that to happen then a population change must have been measured and there hasn't been any.
If you check the Egyptian portrait of the queen of Puntland you will notice that she has pronounced Steatopygia, absolutely not a Somali trait.
Do you even read? Based on who? Is that why somali women have unproportional butts? to the point we call them futo baruur?

Enough of your Bantufied Unprofessional opinions and Ad hominems . Lets see what Anthropologists say. Many have noted it.

https://books.google.no/books?id=hCb6xz ... li&f=false
Steatopygia is common in mature Somali women, especially among the true pastorial tribes.

The thing about rich Somali men lining up women and seeing which booty sticks out the furthest is straight out of Sir Richard Burton's First Footsteps in East Africa (or A Journey to Harar).

picture Example of Streatopygia in Mature Somali women
Image
The indigenous people of the Horn when the Somalis arrived were the Bon or Boonta. These became the Midgan , Madhibaan, and other despised minority groups.

http://madhibaan.org/faq/faq-history.htm
http://madhibaan.org/

The Somalis are relative latecomers.
Absoulute nonsense.Madiban are somalis so i dont see what you are trying to prove Raxanweyn's are somali Ethnics not a minority group as well

So you cannot try and disconnect them from us in your bantu revisonist attempt. Somalis migrated from north then south and west. Raxanweyn and Madhiban are clans part of the Somali ethnic grouping.
https://books.google.no/books?id=hCb6xz ... li&f=false

User avatar
JSL3000
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 8666
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:29 am

Re: Maay is a language, not a dialect.

Postby JSL3000 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:02 am

The malnutrition nomad is the most indenial person on the forum. Other have made a solid argument against him and his only comeback is somali is the orginal man;they even told him his beloved camels are from arabia , so he had temper tantrum almost killed himself, it's ok man you can agree atleast on one thing, there is no pure somali race and af Maay is language very from a simple dialect stop this bravado respect diversity don't be a narrow mind imbecile
:dead:


OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE

Hello, Has your question been answered on this page? We hope yes. If not, you can start a new thread and post your question(s). It is free to join. You can also search our over a million pages (just scroll up and use our site-wide search box) or browse the forums.

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General - General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests