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Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

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AbdiWahab252
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Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby AbdiWahab252 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:22 pm

I am not sure if you have run across that elderly Somali man who went to the USSR or Eastern Bloc for education but returned as hardline atheist Marxists. I have stumbled across at least 5 and they hail from all parts of the country. One common thread is that they are atheist and don't believe or tolerate religion. Unfortunately, one of them is my uncle and he is a brilliant man who is a walking encyclopedia. Every Sunday, I pick him up for breakfast and when we are alone, he lets go and drops wisdom on me:

1. On wadaads - Religious parasites who don't work for a living and made their fortune limiting access to religious knowledge. When he was a boy, his village wadad stood in opposition to secular education not for religious convictions but to ensure that the wadaad's dugsi would remain filled.

2. On mosque building campaigns - Money making rackets for the religious mafia. He says why build a masjid when you don't even a clinic for the sick.

3. On the societal pressure to curb traditional culture - He explained the reason why many songs and dances are in steep decline was due to the religious mafia. He doesn't see why young people can not dance and enjoy their or sing songs. Neither does he see why women have to wear tents and ninja outfits when it is obviously an Arab custom.


4. On tribal leadership - He refers to traditional leaders like Ugaases as societal parasites who live off the sweat and hard work of the others and are beggars. The tribe has to provide welfare to the Ugaas: money, even their wives as provided to them. The Ugaas class live for conflict and politics. They relish the opportunity to solve conflict as a means to make money.

5. On tribalism - Tribalism is the vehicle for scoundrels and opportunists. When someone approaches you out of tribal solidarity, your pocket will be worse for it. In times of barwaaqo, the wealthy forget about their tol only to reappear when their interests are threatened.

I somehow these Godless Marxists to be more moral than the so called religious class.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby CigaalSHiiDaaDCFC » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:29 pm

I agree with him on 4 and 5, the rest he is an athiest and I don't take advice from an atheist on religious matters.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby Gabre » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:50 pm

The proletariat must rise up and kill these bourgeois leeches in their khamees and suits. Dhamaan caaqil iyo wadaad ku sheegayaasha waa tuugo. Against the wall, the lot of them!

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby AbdiWahab252 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:50 pm

I agree with him on 4 and 5, the rest he is an athiest and I don't take advice from an atheist on religious matters.
:lol:

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby AbdiWahab252 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:52 pm

The proletariat must rise up and kill these bourgeois leeches in their khamees and suits. Dhamaan caaqil iyo wadaad ku sheegayaasha waa tuugo. Against the wall, the lot of them!
That would have happened if there was a real Marxist regime in Somalia after the 1969 coup. Imagine if we had a "Cultural Revolution"

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby Gabre » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:56 pm

The proletariat must rise up and kill these bourgeois leeches in their khamees and suits. Dhamaan caaqil iyo wadaad ku sheegayaasha waa tuugo. Against the wall, the lot of them!
That would have happened if there was a real Marxist regime in Somalia after the 1969 coup. Imagine if we had a "Cultural Revolution"
Do you consider the October Revolution to have been not true from its very start?

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby AbdiWahab252 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:02 pm

Nope, not at all.There was no oppressive regime to dismantle nor power to redistribute. The political system was as democratic as you could get with Somalis. It wasn't perfect but every backward clan had its say and its stooge at the feeding trough. To take that and redistribute power to a bunch of unelected uniformed officers with 8th grade education was bound for disaster.


Lenin deposed a feudal monarch - CHECK

Mao deposed a feudal President and artisocracy - CHECK

Barre & Co deposed a rer badiye government that was representative of their rer badiye people.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby UnityForChange » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:51 pm

My father was a Leninist-Marxist when MEISON was founded and I can tell you that he was also Atheist. Majority of Ethiopian politicians evolved from Leninist Marxism including OLF, TPLF, Derg and EPRP also MEISON and many more.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby gurey25 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:00 am

The proletariat must rise up and kill these bourgeois leeches in their khamees and suits. Dhamaan caaqil iyo wadaad ku sheegayaasha waa tuugo. Against the wall, the lot of them!
That would have happened if there was a real Marxist regime in Somalia after the 1969 coup. Imagine if we had a "Cultural Revolution"

cultural revolutions dont work in muslim countries.
The psyche of muslims is different, a full frontal attack creates a violent response.
A counter revolution will be much stronger, if you eliminate the inneffective leadership.

With muslims you need a gradual undermining of traditional values through education and prosperity.
Tunisia is a good example, it has a secular majority.

To affect change through a cultural revolution, you would need repression on the scale that makes siad barre
look like a care bear.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby TheGrumpyGeeljire » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:23 am

The proletariat must rise up and kill these bourgeois leeches in their khamees and suits. Dhamaan caaqil iyo wadaad ku sheegayaasha waa tuugo. Against the wall, the lot of them!
That would have happened if there was a real Marxist regime in Somalia after the 1969 coup. Imagine if we had a "Cultural Revolution"

cultural revolutions dont work in muslim countries.
The psyche of muslims is different, a full frontal attack creates a violent response.
A counter revolution will be much stronger, if you eliminate the inneffective leadership.

With muslims you need a gradual undermining of traditional values through education and prosperity.
Tunisia is a good example, it has a secular majority.

To affect change through a cultural revolution, you would need repression on the scale that makes siad barre
look like a care bear.
A good example would be the ex-soviet Muslim republics. Very communist, no religion. Soviet Union collapses, everyone starts practising again.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby FAH1223 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:55 am

A good example would be the ex-soviet Muslim republics. Very communist, no religion. Soviet Union collapses, everyone starts practising again.
"starts practicing"

As in...

"No pork!!

But I'll have my wine :lol: "

I have met a number of Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Tajiks, Kyrgi folks through my job and its like always the same.

But I have to remember, most of them haven't picked up a Qur'an their whole lives due to the USSR.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby TheMightyNomad » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:50 pm

I am not sure if you have run across that elderly Somali man who went to the USSR or Eastern Bloc for education but returned as hardline atheist Marxists. I have stumbled across at least 5 and they hail from all parts of the country. One common thread is that they are atheist and don't believe or tolerate religion. Unfortunately, one of them is my uncle and he is a brilliant man who is a walking encyclopedia. Every Sunday, I pick him up for breakfast and when we are alone, he lets go and drops wisdom on me:
Yeah its a common trend i am seeing lately. I debate with these atheists often, from my debates with them i can't tell you they are truly weak minded and indoctrinated people.

Let me adress some of his points to further illustrate this.
1. On wadaads - Religious parasites who don't work for a living and made their fortune limiting access to religious knowledge. When he was a boy, his village wadad stood in opposition to secular education not for religious convictions but to ensure that the wadaad's dugsi would remain filled.
Religious knowledge is compatible with secular knowledge. There is no need to teach them seperately from one another. Thats a false dischotomy.

Historically such religious scholars as Osman keynadiid combined teaching of Religious and secular knowledge.Were he taught linguistics,science,philosophy,history in Schools and he wanted to create Somali centered Educational system designed and catered to the needs & demands of our society. Trying to perpell Somali culture into these fields ,unlike the westerners who want to teach knowledge but only with a ''Atheist'' epystemology. Which is very arrogant and imperialistic to assume our educational system should be structered after the west.

In Somali society it was usually the religious class who was highly educated in various fields and subjects outside of religious studies. Many of them with degrees so it wouldn't be odd if they had a dominating presence in teaching, because they were the most educated among the population and religious & secular learning was never possed as distinct seperate things.
2. On mosque building campaigns - Money making rackets for the religious mafia. He says why build a masjid when you don't even a clinic for the sick.
Well for Muslims spiritual well being comes before health and never is this done for capitalist reasons. Mosque's are usually built on donations.

Despite this most charities, orphanages are runned & funded by Religious people and Imams in Somalia. Even hospitals, pharmacies etc are runned by faith based organizations.
Muslim faith-based organizations in Somalia and Kenya
http://afrikansarvi.fi/72-artikkeli/208 ... -and-kenya
There are various types of Muslim FBOs that are active in the context of international relief, humanitarian and development work. They have different objectives and methods of operation, and they belong to different Islamic schools of thought, but they share the basic principles of Islamic ethics. Muslim FBOs see development as both spiritual and material development. In the context of Somalia and Kenya, Muslim FBOs are involved in a wide range of development and humanitarian activities, and their fundraising is based on Islamic principles regarding endowment and charity.
It is obvious that he is only angry that they are building mosques to begin with and from an Atheist point of view he detest such a thing. Sad reality for him that our spiritual well-being will not take a step back to match his Godless decadency.
3. On the societal pressure to curb traditional culture - He explained the reason why many songs and dances are in steep decline was due to the religious mafia. He doesn't see why young people can not dance and enjoy their or sing songs. Neither does he see why women have to wear tents and ninja outfits when it is obviously an Arab custom.
But these are only some manifestations of culture. Do you think all we are left with today is the byproducts of culture, only music or only dance, while having no deep memory of the core cultural system.
What about Our social structure,values and self definitions. In other words ''Ethos''?

From Ancient Somalia til now respect for elders has remained an unbroken cornerstone in Somali cultural systems. Marriage rites, burial rites, ancestors rites, still honor their original foundation.

it is also critical to understand Somali culture is more than symbols, and rituals, languages and aesthetic, it is also those virtues such as hospitality, empathy, courtesy, and respect. So much so that the entire foundation of many of the rituals and customs are there to transmit these virtues. And it is from culture's creativity that creates music and dancing, poetry and arts

Why doesnt he speak of Gabay is losing its social historical functions considering how its being deprived by the westerners. It used to have it own sounds and it used to articulated Somali reality and philosophy. Now apping from the butthole of the diaspora you see a much more degraded version of it and at some point you are conditioned to ask if ''Gabay'' is really gabay anymore or even Somali in its construction & function.

Ask yourself is it Gabay if you express it via the English language?

Tell him that westernized Somalis like him are the ones depriving Somali culture of its substance, meaning and function. They always speak of Somali culture as some sort of advertisement bottle with no content inside of it purely marketed to a westerner consumer base.


4. On tribal leadership - He refers to traditional leaders like Ugaases as societal parasites who live off the sweat and hard work of the others and are beggars. The tribe has to provide welfare to the Ugaas: money, even their wives as provided to them. The Ugaas class live for conflict and politics. They relish the opportunity to solve conflict as a means to make money.
Traditional leaders are far from being parasites nor are they beggars, they play a role of keeping the peace between the clans.

'' Neither Puntland nor Somaliland would have survived their internal wars without the constant support and involvement of elders. Although these traditional institutions do not enjoy the resources of a state, their decisions can carry the power of a government. ''

Abdulrahman Osman ‘Shuke’
http://www.c-r.org/accord-article/order ... somaliland

They are actually the main pillars of society and their role is solely relagated to mediating disputes and resolving conflict & issues.

Elders play huge role in Somali society and although they don't play any role in politics , through their role in civil society they can direct the political landscape.

If anything you can call them professional baby sitters who get no compensation for the important work they do. But nonetheless we are appreciative of the sacrifice our elders make.

Nevertheless i dont understand why he has beef with Traditional Somali leaders such as Islaan, Ugas,Garaad,Malakh,Boqor or Sultan to begin with who are similar to the figureheads of Europe like the Queen& prince in the Uk and the king & prince,princess in Scandinavia and not to mention the Pope, As well as the Emporer of Japan and the Daila Lama. Does he also call them bunch of freeloaders as well? Despite the fact they hold no political power?
5. On tribalism - Tribalism is the vehicle for scoundrels and opportunists. When someone approaches you out of tribal solidarity, your pocket will be worse for it. In times of barwaaqo, the wealthy forget about their tol only to reappear when their interests are threatened.
The vehicle for scoundrels and oppurtunists is the incompatible western system which tries to creates vaccums for them and denies Somalis from creating their own democracy that takes into account the prevailing conditions that exists within our society.

Secondly what he mentioned is not tribalism, thats called ''Vested interests''. Still i dont see the relationship between that and clan structure.

Somalis are not capitalist in the same nature as others. The accumulation of wealth is dispersed between extended families and circulated around the community. Thats why its not uncommon to see a wealthy Somali wage earner supporting 100s of people reliant on his/her paycheck.
Where every one is greedy capitalist low life with no familiy or community values. Where every individuals purpose in life is to enrich his sole self indifferent to how it effects the people around him.

Unlike the west we are charitable and communal in our nature & i love that aspect of Somali people
I somehow these Godless Marxists to be more moral than the so called religious class.
Tell me walaal when he starts to criticize the west or can ever concede to any positive representation concerning Somali culture or Islam. Before then nothing he says will add to any impartiality.
If all he can do is negatively misrepresent the somali social structure and religious class and bring nothing constructive. How moral is he to begin with?

Futhermore our Moral code does not come from ''Man'' unlike these Atheists it comes from ''God''. Why you may ask? why not place moral omnipotency on man? Well the Average Muhammed or Bob are flawed humans and in their human nature they are succeptible to vices. Muslims are no more human than anyone else and have to deal with issues of arrogance, greed, corruption, sincerity, lust, power, bigotry as any other community.

It is not a reflection on Islam which was revealed to correct these ''vices'' and bring social & fiscal balance.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby Raganimo » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:12 pm

Religious knowledge is compatible with secular knowledge. There is no need to teach them seperately from one another. Thats a false dischotomy.
True. The likes of Al-Khawarizmi (inventor of Algorithms), Ibn Khaldun etc. all excelled in religious as well as secular sciences. Ibn Khaldun was in fact a judge in a Sharia court and was a faqih in the Maliki madhhab.

This idea that strict secularism is a prerequisite for scientific development is false. All the ancient civilisations of the past were religious albeit in varying degrees. Even if we look at Christianity, it was not a hindrance for scientific development in Rome. Rome, even after it adopted Christianity, was still the most scientifically advanced society of its time. After it was sacked by the Western European barbarians, they adopted Christianity and brought their superstitions and barbarism into the religion. The problem was never Christianity, rather the barbaric culture of the Western European tribes which they had brought into the religion. That is what stifled scientific development, not Christianity as a religion.

Many people sadly believe this propaganda that religion and scientific advancement are incompatible and they always cite the so-called "dark ages". They do not even understand how absurd it is to superimpose the European experience upon all other civilisation.

Take the Islamic civilisation for instance. It led the world in scientific advancement for hundreds of years, yet it was still a very religious civilisation. I mean, even Andalusia, which everybody loves to praise, was still a Sharia-based society let alone the Abbasid, Umayyad and Uthmani Khalifates. People conveniently forget that part. In the Islamic civilisation, science was simply seen as a tool that could help us understand the natural world which in turn would lead to a greater appreciation for the creation of Allah. They saw scientific research as a form of worship so there was never a strict separation between science and religion.
Last edited by Raganimo on Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby TheMightyNomad » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:13 pm

Just to expand some more on this.
Neither does he see why women have to wear tents and ninja outfits when it is obviously an Arab custom.
Some of you are living in a eurocentric reality. You wear, jeans, pants ,dress shirts,suits and ties yet you don't fret about it, Somehow European dresscode is so normalized its not even called cultural or tradtitional. Our culture is only reduced to the piece of fabric we wear when the conversation shifts towards Arabs. I ask since when does jeans,t-shirts, suits etc become Somali traditional wear?

Since when is our culture reduced to the piece of fabric we wear?

Somali culture does not exist for the pleasure of Western tourist, like a Somali culture is not a theme show at a Walt Disney exhibit. Too often the notion of what is Somali culture is viewed through the touristic culturally-curious lens of Europe.

Today, it is almost impossible to conceive of Somali culture and not hear some drums beating, and some guy jumping around the stage: People flailing their arm around the place screaming ''Dhaaantoo!!''

It is someone—not Somalis—who defined that as the total expression of Somalis culture; Or is it a myth we continue to internalize. In Somalia culture is in drinking traditional tea and while playing a game of shaxda. The most simplest everyday exchange is even culture in our society.

Singing and dancing used to have social and cultural function. now its done for simply stupid entertainment purposes where the existing attachment it had was altered by Westernization.
Last edited by TheMightyNomad on Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

Postby TheMightyNomad » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:45 pm

Exactly!!! Raganimo you said it best.
Many people sadly believe this propaganda that religion and scientific advancement are incompatible and they always cite the so-called "dark ages". They do not even understand how absurd it is to superimpose the European experience upon all other civilisation.
I agree that is why i said the knowledge Europe tries to convey is in its epystemology ''Atheist'' and becoming romanticly attached to the English language is a quick way to be introduced to paradigms from Europe.

As one Muslim scholar Kwame Ture said; because Europe then has this conflict with religion they make the issues of Europe the concerns of the world. So what is true for Europeans must by default be true for everyone else.

AbdiWahabs uncle is a clear example of a person who is mentally hijacked by western propaganda. That's what coming in contact with european world view can do to a Somali. It can remove him from his own self. (In terms of self-definitions and reality.)


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