Saving the Dying Breed of Real Marxists

[Raganimo]

Exactly!!! Raganimo you said it best.

Many people sadly believe this propaganda that religion and scientific advancement are incompatible and they always cite the so-called "dark ages". They do not even understand how absurd it is to superimpose the European experience upon all other civilisation.

I agree that is why i said the knowledge Europe tries to convey is in its epystemology ''Atheist'' and becoming romanticly attached to the English language is a quick way to be introduced to paradigms from Europe.

As one Muslim scholar Kwame Ture said; because Europe then has this conflict with religion they make the issues of Europe the concerns of the world. So what is true for Europeans must by default be true for everyone else.

AbdiWahabs uncle is a clear example of a person who is mentally hijacked by western propaganda. That's what coming in contact with european world view can do to a Somali. It can remove him from his own self. (In terms of self-definitions and reality.)

Exactly, brother.

On the subject of language, Franz Fanon says in "Black Skin, White Masks":

"To speak means being able to use a certain syntax and possessing the morphology of such and such a language, but it means above all assuming a culture and bearing the weight of a civilization. Since the situation is not one-sided, the study should reflect this.
............
The problem we shall tackle in this chapter is as follows: the more the black Antillean assimilates the French language, the whiter he gets—i.e., the closer he comes to becoming a true human being. We are fully aware that this is one of man’s attitudes faced with Being. A man who possesses a language possesses as an indirect consequence the world expressed and implied by this language. You can see what we are driving at: there is an extraordinary power in the possession of a language. Paul Valéry knew this, and described language as “The god gone astray in the flesh.”"

Somali atheists view the world through the prism of European civilisation. They view somali culture, Islam etc through European eyes. The problem is that they assume that certain concepts and beliefs that evolved within a European context are to be applied universally. This line of thinking is heavily promoted by Western governments and institutions. The universality of western principles and ideals.

So when they throw around buzzwords like "civilised", "backwards", "freedom", "enlightenment" etc they do so from the perspective of secular liberalism. Secular liberalism is not some universal truth. It's a man-made concept that evolved within a specific context to serve a specific purpose.

[Lion104]

Sad that many of these marxists are atheists to be honest.

They are much better than these so called religious qabilist that are spineless and sell their country for a dollar. Nationalism is the most important factor needed in a leader, whether they are a communist or a capitalist i dont give a crap.

[TheMightyNomad]

Sad that many of these marxists are atheists to be honest.

They are much better than these so called religious qabilist that are spineless and sell their country for a dollar.

Religious qabilist? Its the western agents funded ,equipped and elected by the international community and the UN who are selling our country for bread crumbs.
We never elected them, we dont pay them their salaries. We don't have any system in place that can take them out Office or punish them, they are not even educated by us either. Everything they are and what they work for is created and designed by the International community.

Yet somehow these Western proxies whom came out once the west buried the Islamic Courts Union (ICU) is somehow a reflection of the Somali religious class?
Do you think Ayaan Hirsi and Nuruddin Farah is a reflection of Somali people's ideological mindset? No? then why do you assume these political puppets are a representation of Somali people?

At some point we need to realize these people are not beholden to us. They don't have to answer to our criticism only to their western pay masters and Saudi Arabs pay masters.

I am not tossing all the blame on the west. Much of the problem lies with the Somali people, my point is that we as people should have the power to put pressure on leadership and shape the leaders that best represent our interest. The solution must come from us and not from the west.

Nationalism is the most important factor needed in a leader, whether they are a communist or a capitalist i dont give a crap.

Yeah cause the communist hyper nationalist thing really worked well for us in the past. We are suppossed to learn from failure and use it as an oppurtunity start again more intelligently.

But hey obviously you dont give a crap since you are soo bent held on re-inventing the wheel.

[TheMightyNomad]

Somalia should be left on her own to carve out a democracy thats suits the prevailing conditions of its society

This change in Somali leadership needs to start from the civic society and up to the corporate & instutional level. Active participation in change of the average person, in the home, in the school in the work place, and in their private relationships.

We need to push out for Self-determination just like our Pan-Somali ancestors did. Determining the names, opinions, cultures and systems that define us is an act of self determination.

This does not imply that we are bigots or reject anything of foreign nature. But it implies that what we accept and how we do it, we do it by our own accordance reflected on the interests of our society.

And might i add Self-determination is never based on what Europeans or American or Saudi Arabs like. It is an inalienable human right which allows people to seek out and decide their own destiny.

[Lion104]

Yeah cause the communist hyper nationalist thing really worked well for us in the past. We are suppossed to learn from failure and use it as an oppurtunity start again more intelligently.

But hey obviously you dont give a crap since you are soo bent held on re-inventing the wheel.

First go and learn your spelling.

Yes, it worked well for us in the past in comparison to now, we had a great leader who was feared by all african countries and now kenya is stealing our lands. I prefer a strong modern land that can be changed to become more Islamic than a weak land under a fake religious label who are spineless and are qabilists. Look at Turkey now under Erdogan and look at the past, where Islam was banned and now where Islam is promoted, economy booming and everything. Fuck Saudi Arabia as well, they are nothing without oil. We used to give zakah to them under these "communist hyper nationalists".

[TheMightyNomad]

Yeah cause the communist hyper nationalist thing really worked well for us in the past. We are suppossed to learn from failure and use it as an oppurtunity start again more intelligently.

But hey obviously you dont give a crap since you are soo bent held on re-inventing the wheel.

First go and learn your spelling.

Informal writing. This is a message board not a job listing.

Yes, it worked well for us in the past in comparison to now, we had a great leader who was feared by all african countries and now kenya is stealing our lands. I prefer a strong modern land that can be changed to become more Islamic than a weak land under a fake religious label who are spineless and are qabilists. Look at Turkey now under Erdogan and look at the past, where Islam was banned and now where Islam is promoted, economy booming and everything. Fuck Saudi Arabia as well, they are nothing without oil. We used to give zakah to them under these "communist hyper nationalists".

If it worked well for us in the past, then how come it isnt shown these last 25 years.
The truth is , it didn't work for us and what it has left us with is an ever increasing vaccum.

Kacaan regime was far from being islamic, nor was the institutions even Somali. It was modelled & stylized after the west. It never took into account our societal structure or culture in its state construction.

And i know Somalia in the 70s and the 80s had far better living conditions then todays circumstances. (economic, infrastructure,jobs,security and education) was ten times better during that time.

The problem was the state model which brought issues of unequal political participation, unequal resource disribution and authoritarian injustice.

Which led to an increase in mistrust in the somali public and that was the cause for the civil war.

[Lion104]

Yeah cause the communist hyper nationalist thing really worked well for us in the past. We are suppossed to learn from failure and use it as an oppurtunity start again more intelligently.

But hey obviously you dont give a crap since you are soo bent held on re-inventing the wheel.

First go and learn your spelling.

Informal writing. This is a message board not a job listing.

Yes, it worked well for us in the past in comparison to now, we had a great leader who was feared by all african countries and now kenya is stealing our lands. I prefer a strong modern land that can be changed to become more Islamic than a weak land under a fake religious label who are spineless and are qabilists. Look at Turkey now under Erdogan and look at the past, where Islam was banned and now where Islam is promoted, economy booming and everything. Fuck Saudi Arabia as well, they are nothing without oil. We used to give zakah to them under these "communist hyper nationalists".

If it worked well for us in the past, then how come it isnt shown these last 25 years.
The truth is , it didn't work for us and what it has left us with is an ever increasing vaccum.

Kacaan regime was far from being islamic, nor was the institutions even Somali. It was modelled & stylized after the west. It never took into account our societal structure or culture in its state construction.

And i know Somalia in the 70s and the 80s had far better living conditions then todays circumstances. (economic, infrastructure,jobs,security and education) was ten times better during that time.

The problem was the state model which brought issues of unequal political participation, unequal resource disribution and authoritarian injustice.

Which led to an increase in mistrust in the somali public and that was the cause for the civil war.

I consider the kacaan regime more islamic than the current regime. They fought against ethiopia who are non muslim to bring back muslim land that belonged to us somalis. Are the people who died for this not fighting for islam?

Compare that to the politicians today who sell our seas full of gas, oil and natural resources and are who are the lapdog of ethiopia plus kenya and are the ultimate qabilist. Foreign troops in somalia raping our women now. What islam are you talking about?

Tribalism was a problem recognized by the communists and they wanted to eradicate it. You say unequal political participation when our president has been chosen based on his qabil. What justice is this?

Unequal resource distribution? There are no resources to be distributed at all now! Tell me, do you think UAE or Saudi Arabia is all like Dubai and riyadh? Of course the capital will be built first, and eventually all the other cities would be fixed.

I dont agree with the kacaan regime but dont preach islam when somalia is under the kafir government of ethiopia and kenya now. There is nothing islamic today.

It was a secular military regime trying to mimic the West but so was Turkey. Mustafa Kamal hated Islam and made the Adhaan Turkish whilst Siad Barre was a Muslim, which of the two was worse? Now look at the two ways a country can transform to become more Islamic. Peacefully or through violence. Look at the ICU how they were removed and compare that to the people of Turkey who stood up against the military.

[TheMightyNomad]

I consider the kacaan regime more islamic than the current regime. They fought against ethiopia who are non muslim to bring back muslim land that belonged to us somalis. Are the people who died for this not fighting for islam?

I am not questioning if the people were islamic. All i am saying is that in terms of policies and institutions it certaintly had no islamic element. Granted they didn't fight ethiopia for Islamic reasons but for nationalist reason.

Heck do you know that Siad Barre was granted a deal of getting 95% of the Ogaden region by the soviet and he declined the offer?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03pk9c1

Compare that to the politicians today who sell our seas full of gas, oil and natural resources and are who are the lapdog of ethiopia plus kenya and are the ultimate qabilist. Foreign troops in somalia raping our women now. What islam are you talking about?

I dont agree with the kacaan regime but dont preach islam when somalia is under the kafir government of ethiopia and kenya now. There is nothing islamic today.

It was a secular military regime trying to mimic the West but so was Turkey. Mustafa Kamal hated Islam and made the Adhaan Turkish whilst Siad Barre was a Muslim, which of the two was worse? Now look at the two ways a country can transform to become more Islamic. Peacefully or through violence. Look at the ICU how they were removed and compare that to the people of Turkey who stood up against the military.

Who said i was in support of the current Government or think their actions are in anyway reflective of Islam?. What these politicians are doing now is alien to us. It's fake governance so the criminals can loot and the foreigners can rip us off. This is a harness to keep us divided and weak so they can create a corrupt elite.

All i am saying is that we are trying to fit Somali people into a western political system. ''Our system should be tailor fit for us and our society."

[TheMightyNomad]

Tribalism was a problem recognized by the communists and they wanted to eradicate it. You say unequal political participation when our president has been chosen based on his qabil. What justice is this?
Unequal resource distribution? There are no resources to be distributed at all now! Tell me, do you think UAE or Saudi Arabia is all like Dubai and riyadh? Of course the capital will be built first, and eventually all the other cities would be fixed.

The only thing Kacaan regime did was deny the existence of clans and scapegoat every Somali issue on our social structure. This narrative that clan was the biggest agent in conflict and division in Somalis is a myth. Conflict in Somalia is not happening because of Clan.

Clans are not an ideology/cult or a doctrine . Clans are just social units.

Let me clue you in on the different inequities that existed in the Kacaan regime that helped shape the political climate that exist today.

In the first decade of the independent Somali state, politics was centered in Mogadishu. Although the country was democratic, many communities outside of Mogadishu were marginalized. This created a deep mistrust for a centralized state.

Here are some key factors operating the current day mistrust.

1) Unequal destribution of resources fostering mistrust

Before the civil war people living north and far down south had to go to mogadishu to get what they need from housing,Education,passport and jobs. Somalis from various regions had these complaint about not going all the way to mogadishu to get these services but to recieve them locally.

Somalis from all backgrounds shared thecomplaint: “I do not want to go to Mogadishu to get a passport or a university education.'' I need to access these services close to home.”

These complaints were not unfounded, previous governments did maintain resources for these basic services in the
capital, even though they could have been delivered locally.6

Thus Somalis associate centralized and authoritarian government with the unequal sharing of resources – a practice locally referred to as ''sad-bursi''.


2). Unequal political participation fostering mistrust.

Many people who support decentralization also demand genuine political participation.
representatives. This demand is not limited to the elites of one region or clan, or even one class (the elite). Rather, it is common to hear Somalis saying, “I do not want Mogadishu authority to appoint the mayor of my town or the governor of my region.”

This is a widespread grievance that many Somalis, across the country, have against centralized and authoritarian administration in the capital. This is particularly the case because previous governments appointed governors, mayors, police commissioners, and all other bureaucrats for different agencies. This previous system was so centralized that even the decision to transfer a schoolteacher from one place to another
was made in Mogadishu.


3). The reason behind current day federal states.

The build up of mistrust against a centralized state fueled by the lack of political participation and resource distrubiution resulted in the creation of federal clan states.

Reinforcing this mistrust against a centralized state is newly common practice to organize a political party somewhere and claim presidency over a given region.

The issues are more complex then clan or clannism. They are based on actual grieviances and if we dont get to the roots of these issues, instead of complaining about the symptoms we will never see the light of day.

http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/G ... 64b9b9964b

[GalliumerianSlayer]

What do you think of Slavoj Zizek?

[smartyt]

Yeah cause the communist hyper nationalist thing really worked well for us in the past. We are suppossed to learn from failure and use it as an oppurtunity start again more intelligently.

But hey obviously you dont give a crap since you are soo bent held on re-inventing the wheel.

First go and learn your spelling.

Yes, it worked well for us in the past in comparison to now, we had a great leader who was feared by all african countries and now kenya is stealing our lands. I prefer a strong modern land that can be changed to become more Islamic than a weak land under a fake religious label who are spineless and are qabilists. Look at Turkey now under Erdogan and look at the past, where Islam was banned and now where Islam is promoted, economy booming and everything. Fuck Saudi Arabia as well, they are nothing without oil. We used to give zakah to them under these "communist hyper nationalists".

He is the son of Ssdf tratiors dont expect too much from him

[7anseba]

Very interesting discussion you guys are having. "All problems are solved by questions and answers" and "follow the logic", as the great Neely Fuller says. The problem I believe is when people stop asking then problems do not get solved. It simply adds up until disaster strikes. I do believe that religion plays an important role in the well being and advancement of a society. However, whatever religion a society follows it should always be able to be questioned logically and it should NOT be used as a pretext to infringe on people's personal integrity.

Now, since I'm not a Somali I can simply give my opinions/suggestions. In the end, in my opinion, it should be Somalis, primarely Somalis who live in Somalia, who should come up with their own solutions by using QUESTIONS and ANSWERS!

[luis1]

Heck do you know that Siad Barre was granted a deal of getting 95% of the Ogaden region by the soviet and he declined the offer?

Why did Barre declined the offer?

When did Soviets make that offer to Barre?

[Lion104]

x

What Islamic elements does the current government have that they didn’t have back then? I didn’t say they were Islamic; it’s pretty clear that they were a secular socialist government; my point is that they cared about the integrity of our country, the protection of our borders, and that they were feared by our kuffar neighbors. We don’t have any of that today.

Fighting to restore Muslim territory taken by the Ethiopians is an Islamic reason. Do you think the Palestinian’s fighting against Israel or the Pakistani’s who tried to take back Kashmir from India are are also not nationalist? Of course they are, but at the same time their cause is Islamic and those who died for it are shaheed(inshallah). The fact that he wanted to restore all of the Somali region and wanted to show the Ethiopians he’s full strength shows that he was a true nationalist.

I am not calling for the restoration of the socialist regime BTW, heck I don’t personally believe in many of their policies myself, but some of the criticism against them hold no basis. Yes it would be perfect to have a Somali political system that is truly Islamic, but we live in the 21st century and the “free world” would never allow such a thing to happen. If the MB went through a military revolt and Erdogan, what do you expect will happen to a weak Somalia? My initial point is that a leader who is a nationalist and truly cares for his people is better than a spineless politician who claims to follow Islam. We don’t live in a fantasy, so view things from an objective and realistic point of view.

If qabil were simply social units, then much of the problems of Somalia would be solved. But they aren’t. Siad Barre did go to extremes regarding qabil, but he’s reaction was justified. TRIBALISM (not simply clans) is a serious problem and one of our main problems. Do you think that the other tribes would be raiding and killing each other back in the day if “clans are just social units”? Today, the government is elected based on qabil, employers give out jobs based on qabil, corruption is based on qabil and our enemies exploit us based on qabil. You cannot simply ignore the issue.

Regarding the fact that Mogadishu was the center of politics, this is a problem which can be solved over time. Historically, there has never been a real unified state among all Somalis and such problems are bound to occur. Siad Barre focused a lot on military but left a lot of issues, he was a military general so he’s perspective of nation building would be skewed. But, the reality is that there are MANY countries that are like you have described and they are “capitalist” in nature. The capital will always be built first and then eventually, the resources will be distributed throughout the country. You are more productive if you focus on one specific thing at a time rather than multiple things. There will always be a divide between rural and urban areas as well, there will be more jobs in London than in a remote village in England. It’s normal.

[Gabre]

https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status ... 1816171520