My 23andme results and my in depth research of qabiil trends in DNA

[Ben Dover]

Zumaale,

My claim of the youngest clan being Isaaq is based purely on abtirsi. The Isaaq progenitor is more recent than any other major Somali clan, based on the abtisri of Isaaq VS Darod, Dir, or Hawiye. Do you dispute that?

It has nothing to do recycling of any myth. I cited the example of reer Dood, being attached to HJ to this day whilst still maintaing their separate identity. Some uninformed Somalis will say that reer Dood is HJ but everyone knows they maintain their own abtirsi separate to that of Isaaq. This was the case with Isaaq vis-a-vis Dir. You are right in saying that the claim is not supported by the 'host' clan, but that does not invalidate the claim in any way. And whilst I accept that some Isaaq (from one branch of the 8 brothers) returned T, the latest study from Djibouti returned Dir 100% T and Isaaq 100% E-V32, we can make a guess that they might have been majority HA, but there are other Isaaq tribes that live in Djibourti, most recently the presidential candidate being a Garxajis man.

I have no idea about what you said regarding Garxajis and Mandalug (I do not even know who Mandalug is), care to explain the story?

Listen, all of these folklore tales of so and so mothering so and so are taken with a grain of salt, I am not having any part of this cake sxb, it is just folklore to me, the only real tangible thing we have is abtirsi, this was the ONLY recorded bit of information we can work with. And that bit of information totally flies against Arab Isaaq being maternal kin do Harti. Because Harti (and Ogaden) is much older than Isaaq himself as per abtirsi of both clans.

To put it in simple terms, Isaaq as a clan is younger than Harti as a clan.

There are no inconsistencies within the Isaaq abtirsimo. Most Isaaqs count 16-17 on the low end to 19-20 with very few counting up to 22. The discrepancy within other clans, where one subclan counts 20 and an equal subclan counts 30 to the same man usually means generations were skipped in the shorter line. I am not saying abtirsi is without faults, I am saying it is the only historical document we actually have documented.

I am telling you based on my experience with Isaaq. It is true that older generation are cool with Dir, but even in my family I have never seen anyone say Isaaq is Dir. I have heard of Cisse being a cousin of Isaaq (both being arab lol) and other ludicrous claims but never that Isaaq was Dir.

I am not going to ask no one about Buurmadow. He is a boqor of my own subclan sxb. I am telling you a fact, he never went to Tripoli as a Dir rep. If you have proof that he did I would be happy to hear it, but do not say ask Xildiid. You can watch him tell the story yourself if you look up when he is interviewed about it, they called him in hargeisa and he left to represent Isaaq. Keep in mind that Buurmadow is very vocal, too vocal perhaps, if he believed in the Dir myth you would have heard it by now.

[zumaale]

Zumaale,

My claim of the youngest clan being Isaaq is based purely on abtirsi. The Isaaq progenitor is more recent than any other major Somali clan, based on the abtisri of Isaaq VS Darod, Dir, or Hawiye. Do you dispute that?

It has nothing to do recycling of any myth. I cited the example of reer Dood, being attached to HJ to this day whilst still maintaing their separate identity. Some uninformed Somalis will say that reer Dood is HJ but everyone knows they maintain their own abtirsi separate to that of Isaaq. This was the case with Isaaq vis-a-vis Dir. You are right in saying that the claim is not supported by the 'host' clan, but that does not invalidate the claim in any way. And whilst I accept that some Isaaq (from one branch of the 8 brothers) returned T, the latest study from Djibouti returned Dir 100% T and Isaaq 100% E-V32, we can make a guess that they might have been majority HA, but there are other Isaaq tribes that live in Djibourti, most recently the presidential candidate being a Garxajis man.

I have no idea about what you said regarding Garxajis and Mandalug (I do not even know who Mandalug is), care to explain the story?

Listen, all of these folklore tales of so and so mothering so and so are taken with a grain of salt, I am not having any part of this cake sxb, it is just folklore to me, the only real tangible thing we have is abtirsi, this was the ONLY recorded bit of information we can work with. And that bit of information totally flies against Arab Isaaq being maternal kin do Harti. Because Harti (and Ogaden) is much older than Isaaq himself as per abtirsi of both clans.

To put it in simple terms, Isaaq as a clan is younger than Harti as a clan.

There are no inconsistencies within the Isaaq abtirsimo. Most Isaaqs count 16-17 on the low end to 19-20 with very few counting up to 22. The discrepancy within other clans, where one subclan counts 20 and an equal subclan counts 30 to the same man usually means generations were skipped in the shorter line. I am not saying abtirsi is without faults, I am saying it is the only historical document we actually have documented.

I am telling you based on my experience with Isaaq. It is true that older generation are cool with Dir, but even in my family I have never seen anyone say Isaaq is Dir. I have heard of Cisse being a cousin of Isaaq (both being arab lol) and other ludicrous claims but never that Isaaq was Dir.

I am not going to ask no one about Buurmadow. He is a boqor of my own subclan sxb. I am telling you a fact, he never went to Tripoli as a Dir rep. If you have proof that he did I would be happy to hear it, but do not say ask Xildiid. You can watch him tell the story yourself if you look up when he is interviewed about it, they called him in hargeisa and he left to represent Isaaq. Keep in mind that Buurmadow is very vocal, too vocal perhaps, if he believed in the Dir myth you would have heard it by now.

How many Samaale abtirsis have you seen? How many Darood abtirsis have you seen? Is it possible that Dhulbahante and Ogaden multiplied quicker than Arab? I do not know what you majored in, abtirsi does not count as a reliable historical source in determining when clans when founded. This is why I stress the importance of DNA tests to determine clan relations.

That Djiboutian study used people whose grandparents lived in Djibouti, the overwhelmingly majority of Isaaq that went to Djibouti for work during the colonial era were Sacad Muuse and the test results are a reflection of this. Moreover, Habar Jeclos and Habar Awals have also returned T so hold your horses son, we need to determine what subclans within them that are E-V32 and which ones are T.

Garxajis is the name of the clan that Ismaacil Carre married a a daughter from, hence why the clan used to be called Habar Garxajis. Similarly, Yoonis is the name of the father of the girl that gave birth to Habar Yoonis clan members.

You never answered some of the questions in my previous post.

Can I ask how you have come to the conclusion that you were in an alliance with us and where did you obtain this new narrative from? The entire idea that Isaaq were in some sort of alliance with Dir is based on what historical narrative considering that it appears to be a rehash of the Bani Hashim myth? Furthermore, where do you come from if you are not Bani Hashim and not Samaale or Darood either? Are you like the Sheekhal, Ugayslabe and Reer Dood?

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Zumaale,

You can not have your cake and eat it, on one hand you object to my 'myth' of Isaaq and with the same breath you use the Darod 'myth' of Arab mothering Dhulos. If you do not accept any myth then do not use one as part of your argument.

If we put all 'myth' aside, the only concrete history we have is abstisi, there is absolutely no logic to the son of Harti or Ogaden (some Harti and Ogaden count 30 names to Harti and 27 names to Ogaden respectively) marrying the daughter of Arab Sh. Isaxaaq (some Arab count 17 names to Arab Isaxaaq) they did not walk this earth within the same century! If Isaaq himself is younger than Harti and Ogaden, how can his granddaughter birth Dhulbahante and Ogaden? You are dead wrong mate.

Isaaq is most certainly the youngest clan. Compare their abtirsi (most count 17-20 few go up to 21-22 range) to other clans.

My analogy with reer Door is absolutely valid. I am not discussing their origin, we were talking about alliance, to which you said there can only be 'adoption' nor 'confederation':

What do you mean by alliance? There is no such thing as an alliance between two clans. It is either a culture of adoption (Sheegad) or confederation (Raxanweyn).

Reer Door are neither outright adopted by HJ (like Ciise do) nor formed a confederation (like Raxanweyn), what they did is they created an alliance where reer Dood maintain their separate identity as outsiders yet still fall under the HJ umbrella. Which is what happened between Dir and Isaaq. Think of it as reer Dood today growing in numbers and moving out of that alliance.

You can not claim to be the natives of the land, Isaaq and Darood are as native to this land as you are, in fact I can even go on a limb and say you might be the newcomer based on DNA.

Muse Biixi never claimed Dir is what I was saying, until we can see proof the man claimed Dir I would ease off such claims. What you must understand is that the vast majority of Isaaq, virtually anyone who is not a politician would smack you if you claimed they were Dir. Political maneuverings aside, they are all content with identifying as Isaaq. You will see some like Cigaal or my cousin the Yusuf on here going on about Dir, but it is all politicking, nothing more. This is not to say they harbour any resentment towards Dir, they dont.

As for Buurmadow, you do not need to link me to a wordpress blog, I am telling you he never went as a Dir rep but as a representative of his beel. You can lookup any video of him talking about it, he got the call from Tripoli in his home in Hargeisa, and went as a representative of Isaaq rather than Dir.

My rejection of the youngest clan myth was not only based on Arab's daughter giving birth to Dhulbahante and Ogaden but also on the the fact that the Bani Hashim that you have recycled to exclude the Arab ancestry part, still claims that the Dir clan sheltered your supposed ancestor and he married a great great granddaughter of Dir. That claim is made unilaterally and not supported by the 'host' clan or any other Samaale/Darood clan. They all state that Isaaq is a subclan of Dir.

Furthermore, how can you dismiss the Darood claims about their maternal Arab grandmother without dismissing the claim that the daughter of Garxajis Mandalug Dir gave birth to Ismaacil's son? Similarly, if the Isaaq is a newcomer to the Somali ethnic group, how could a granddaughter of Geri Kombe father Care Siciid? The way clans clans are maternally linked does not support such a claim. Now, who is having their cake and eating it?

Can I ask how you have come to the conclusion that you were in an alliance with us and where did you obtain this new narrative from? The entire idea that Isaaq were in some sort of alliance with Dir is based on what historical narrative considering that it appears to be a rehash of the Bani Hashim myth? Furthermore, where do you come from if you are not Bani Hashim and not Samaale or Darood either? Are you like the Sheekhal, Ugayslabe and Reer Dood?

Abtirsi is not a full proof method of determining who the youngest clan is because it can be subject to falsification, Arabisation, skipping of generations or the disparity between clans can be caused by how landheer a subclan becomes due to successful breeding.

In regard to my claim to being native Somalis/Samaales, that was never in doubt. Entire clans attempt to fit it into the Somali ethnic identity by trying to link themselves with Dir. We and the other Samaales are the prototype Somalis and not one Somali clan disputes this. The archaic Somali Xeer system is called Xeer Aji; Aji being the father of Dir. Even if the Dir genetic marker turns out to be HG-T, it does not make a difference because the Samaale confederation was formed in the last two millenniums and my HG-T ancestor was already established in the Horn by that time as the Danish paper speculates.

In regard to your claim that I would be smacked if I told any Isaaq that they are Dir, I don't think I would have had much teeth left if that was the case. Starting with my own Reer Apti, I have observed a trend whereby the Dir identification is more common place among the older generation. I have relatives or in-laws from all the three Big Habars, so I ain't talking out of my ass. Even on Somalinet, Yusuf ain't the only one, it is just that he is the most vocal one along with Jalaluddin. Are you telling me that Jala and the following Niggas in this thread are identifying with Dir for political reasons too? You do not know for a fact if Cigaal identified with Dir for political reasons, the only thing that can be taken as fact is that he claimed to be Dir.

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=365452

Ask Xildiid about Boqor Burmadoow if you do not believe me.

How do Isaaq still hold on to the theory that They are from the arab shiekh to prove they are younger than Darood, we already proved we are all natives. then reject that Araps Grand daughter mothered Dhulos and Ogaden but accept Araps brother Garxajis grandson was mothered by Geri grand daughter. These abtirsis we are using are confederacies ome people skip names and some are just duud or short branch two related families might count 17 or 25 to the same man. So we can't take somali Abtiris serious.

My 7 th Great Grand Father decendants are 2000, some other Dhulos of the same Generation are tens of thouasands..you cant say one is more than the other so they can't have married lol

[Ben Dover]

Zumaale,

I do not need to have gone to school to make the basic deduction that counting 18 names to Isaaq makes him younger than Harti (with 30 names). Its basics, you can not argue this.

You are contradicting yourself, you refuse to accept abtirsi, the only thing Somalis ever documented, and you are happy to accept pure folklore claims that Arab Isaaq woman mothered Dhulbahante. It simply can not happen. I am not saying abtirsi is gospel, but its the only thing Somalis ever bothered to document.

We can not jump to conclusions if the study did not state the subclans. It included Hawiye who are more rare to see in Djibouti than any Isaaq.

To answer the question you have quoted:

I did not come to this conclusion myself, it is what I was told by elders in my family. It is not a new narrative at all. And unlike the fairytale you accept of Arab lady mothering Dhulbahante or Ogaden, an entire section of Isaaq is called Habar Magaadle. Furthermore, contrary to what you are saying Isaaq themselves deny the association with Dir, read up on I. M . Lewis when he is discussing Isaaq, he mentions that they themselves deny the Dir association.

We come from where you come from, the horn of Africa. I hate to break it to you, Samaale too is a myth. Unless you are actually arguing the Samaale case of course.

This is your own Boqor talking to Isaaq men, he is always careful to make the distinction between Beesha Direed and us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1-O16Xv3e0

[Ben Dover]

Prince,

No one is holding on to the Arab myth, we are all natives sxb. But Isaaq is a younger clan than Darod. I actually do not see why this is a big deal. Look at both abtirsi and compare. It just means that the clan formed later than the other. Ogaden and your own cousins the MJs count 28 and 30 names to Absame and Harti respectively. When they were roaming the earth there was no such thing as Isaaq.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Prince,

No one is holding on to the Arab myth, we are all natives sxb. But Isaaq is a younger clan than Darod. I actually do not see why this is a big deal. Look at both abtirsi and compare. It just means that the clan formed later than the other. Ogaden and your own cousins the MJs count 28 and 30 names to Absame and Harti respectively. When they were roaming the earth there was no such thing as Isaaq.

Both Ogaden and Dhulos count 22 or 23 to Darood.
Do you count the Same to Isaaq as a Arap? Ayub? TOLJECLO? SANBUR CIBRAAN? ETC?

You cant also use Abtiris to determine the age, because Somali skip some names..

I'm not saying they are all true but you cant accept one and reject the other..

[zumaale]

Zumaale,

I do not need to have gone to school to make the basic deduction that counting 18 names to Isaaq makes him younger than Harti (with 30 names). Its basics, you can not argue this.

You are contradicting yourself, you refuse to accept abtirsi, the only thing Somalis ever documented, and you are happy to accept pure folklore claims that Arab Isaaq woman mothered Dhulbahante. It simply can not happen. I am not saying abtirsi is gospel, but its the only thing Somalis ever bothered to document.

We can not jump to conclusions if the study did not state the subclans. It included Hawiye who are more rare to see in Djibouti than any Isaaq.

To answer the question you have quoted:

I did not come to this conclusion myself, it is what I was told by elders in my family. It is not a new narrative at all. And unlike the fairytale you accept of Arab lady mothering Dhulbahante or Ogaden, an entire section of Isaaq is called Habar Magaadle. Furthermore, contrary to what you are saying Isaaq themselves deny the association with Dir, read up on I. M . Lewis when he is discussing Isaaq, he mentions that they themselves deny the Dir association.

We come from where you come from, the horn of Africa. I hate to break it to you, Samaale too is a myth. Unless you are actually arguing the Samaale case of course.

This is your own Boqor talking to Isaaq men, he is always careful to make the distinction between Beesha Direed and us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1-O16Xv3e0

You got me all wrong. From a historical perspective, I am questioning everything and their is inconsistencies between abtirsis and maternal relations. I am not saying one is wrong and the other is right, I am merely stating that shit does not add up.

I can logically speculate because it is an established fact that Sacad Muuse formed the overwhelmingly majority of Isaaqs that sought work in colonial Djibouti. The four grandparent rule would exclude recent Somali migrants.

Elaborate please on what your family told you because you believed in the Arab fairytale not too long ago.

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52993

Did you independently come to that conclusion at that time that you were the descendant of a Bani Hashim? Did your family tell you the old myth that Isaaq was an Arab man or did they tell you that he was some other foreigner that was welcomed into Northern Somalia by the Dir natives? Did DNA change your stance on the Arab myth?

Samaale is like any other national origin myth, a mixture of truth and folklore. It is inextricably linked with the Somali identity and Samaale clans have always been held to be the founding members of this club.

Did I deny that some Isaaq deny the Dir association? Similarly, you cannot deny that some Isaaqs identify with Dir.

Lastly, there is no Dir Boqoor . He is another self-styled Boqoor that speaks for only himself and no one else. Moreover, he does not not even mention Isaaq but says that, as the 'head' of the Dir nation he welcomes the heads of the political parties.

[zumaale]

Zumaale,

You can not have your cake and eat it, on one hand you object to my 'myth' of Isaaq and with the same breath you use the Darod 'myth' of Arab mothering Dhulos. If you do not accept any myth then do not use one as part of your argument.

If we put all 'myth' aside, the only concrete history we have is abstisi, there is absolutely no logic to the son of Harti or Ogaden (some Harti and Ogaden count 30 names to Harti and 27 names to Ogaden respectively) marrying the daughter of Arab Sh. Isaxaaq (some Arab count 17 names to Arab Isaxaaq) they did not walk this earth within the same century! If Isaaq himself is younger than Harti and Ogaden, how can his granddaughter birth Dhulbahante and Ogaden? You are dead wrong mate.

Isaaq is most certainly the youngest clan. Compare their abtirsi (most count 17-20 few go up to 21-22 range) to other clans.

My analogy with reer Door is absolutely valid. I am not discussing their origin, we were talking about alliance, to which you said there can only be 'adoption' nor 'confederation':



Reer Door are neither outright adopted by HJ (like Ciise do) nor formed a confederation (like Raxanweyn), what they did is they created an alliance where reer Dood maintain their separate identity as outsiders yet still fall under the HJ umbrella. Which is what happened between Dir and Isaaq. Think of it as reer Dood today growing in numbers and moving out of that alliance.

You can not claim to be the natives of the land, Isaaq and Darood are as native to this land as you are, in fact I can even go on a limb and say you might be the newcomer based on DNA.

Muse Biixi never claimed Dir is what I was saying, until we can see proof the man claimed Dir I would ease off such claims. What you must understand is that the vast majority of Isaaq, virtually anyone who is not a politician would smack you if you claimed they were Dir. Political maneuverings aside, they are all content with identifying as Isaaq. You will see some like Cigaal or my cousin the Yusuf on here going on about Dir, but it is all politicking, nothing more. This is not to say they harbour any resentment towards Dir, they dont.

As for Buurmadow, you do not need to link me to a wordpress blog, I am telling you he never went as a Dir rep but as a representative of his beel. You can lookup any video of him talking about it, he got the call from Tripoli in his home in Hargeisa, and went as a representative of Isaaq rather than Dir.

My rejection of the youngest clan myth was not only based on Arab's daughter giving birth to Dhulbahante and Ogaden but also on the the fact that the Bani Hashim that you have recycled to exclude the Arab ancestry part, still claims that the Dir clan sheltered your supposed ancestor and he married a great great granddaughter of Dir. That claim is made unilaterally and not supported by the 'host' clan or any other Samaale/Darood clan. They all state that Isaaq is a subclan of Dir.

Furthermore, how can you dismiss the Darood claims about their maternal Arab grandmother without dismissing the claim that the daughter of Garxajis Mandalug Dir gave birth to Ismaacil's son? Similarly, if the Isaaq is a newcomer to the Somali ethnic group, how could a granddaughter of Geri Kombe father Care Siciid? The way clans clans are maternally linked does not support such a claim. Now, who is having their cake and eating it?

Can I ask how you have come to the conclusion that you were in an alliance with us and where did you obtain this new narrative from? The entire idea that Isaaq were in some sort of alliance with Dir is based on what historical narrative considering that it appears to be a rehash of the Bani Hashim myth? Furthermore, where do you come from if you are not Bani Hashim and not Samaale or Darood either? Are you like the Sheekhal, Ugayslabe and Reer Dood?

Abtirsi is not a full proof method of determining who the youngest clan is because it can be subject to falsification, Arabisation, skipping of generations or the disparity between clans can be caused by how landheer a subclan becomes due to successful breeding.

In regard to my claim to being native Somalis/Samaales, that was never in doubt. Entire clans attempt to fit it into the Somali ethnic identity by trying to link themselves with Dir. We and the other Samaales are the prototype Somalis and not one Somali clan disputes this. The archaic Somali Xeer system is called Xeer Aji; Aji being the father of Dir. Even if the Dir genetic marker turns out to be HG-T, it does not make a difference because the Samaale confederation was formed in the last two millenniums and my HG-T ancestor was already established in the Horn by that time as the Danish paper speculates.

In regard to your claim that I would be smacked if I told any Isaaq that they are Dir, I don't think I would have had much teeth left if that was the case. Starting with my own Reer Apti, I have observed a trend whereby the Dir identification is more common place among the older generation. I have relatives or in-laws from all the three Big Habars, so I ain't talking out of my ass. Even on Somalinet, Yusuf ain't the only one, it is just that he is the most vocal one along with Jalaluddin. Are you telling me that Jala and the following Niggas in this thread are identifying with Dir for political reasons too? You do not know for a fact if Cigaal identified with Dir for political reasons, the only thing that can be taken as fact is that he claimed to be Dir.

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=365452

Ask Xildiid about Boqor Burmadoow if you do not believe me.

How do Isaaq still hold on to the theory that They are from the arab shiekh to prove they are younger than Darood, we already proved we are all natives. then reject that Araps Grand daughter mothered Dhulos and Ogaden but accept Araps brother Garxajis grandson was mothered by Geri grand daughter. These abtirsis we are using are confederacies ome people skip names and some are just duud or short branch two related families might count 17 or 25 to the same man. So we can't take somali Abtiris serious.

My 7 th Great Grand Father decendants are 2000, some other Dhulos of the same Generation are tens of thouasands..you cant say one is more than the other so they can't have married lol

Shit ain't an exact science bro and to state otherwise is foolhardy.

[Thanatophiliac]

Although, I agree with my brother Zuumale on most things. I feel that Ben Dover is right in that, Isaaq are not Dir. I do not say that for the sake of pleasing anyone. Although, as someone who knows Dir history. We have no record of anyone known as Isaaq or even Darood coming to our shores and marrying our women. Nevertheless, I believe that Isaaq (like Darood) are a separate tribe.
Dir, Darood, Isaaq, Hawiye and Rahanwein and minorities make up Somalia. That's my view.

[Ben Dover]

Prince,

Ogaden and MJ count 30-33 to Darod. There is a discrepency in what MJ count VS what Dhulos count. No one knows why, but I am assuming Dhulos dropped unimportant names. With that in mind how would that sit with most Isaaq counting 17-21 names to Isaaq?

Zumaale,

What does your quote prove? That you can use the search facility?

I believed the Arab story when that was presented to me and when the facts changed I changed my opinion. It only proves I am not attached to this 'myth' dogmatically. I do not care much for it. To answer your question I heard both the Arab story and the alliance story.

You can not say Samaale is a mixture of truth and folklore, it is folklore alright but as to what measure of truth there is to be found in that story is yet to be determined.

You claim that some Isaaq believe they are Dir, I have corrected you a number of times on this. Outside a number of individuals the vast majority of Isaaq consider themselves Isaaq. This is what they will tell you. This is what Somali historians like Lewis will tell you (even when he accepts some other Somalis associate Isaaq with Dir he is clear that Isaaqs themselves do not consider themselves Dir, but a stand alone clan). And here you are telling me that it is true because some random members on Somalinet say so. The same with your claim that Musue Biixi and Buurmadow claim Dir when they did not. All of these claims are false sxb.

As for the Dir elder, that was my point. He is not welcoming his 'cousins' or fellow Dir, but rather officials from Somaliland, there is no mention of Isaaq being Dir at all, which is bizarre for your claim that these are all Dir men having dinner.

Thanatophiliac,

I think it is actually very straight forward. The fact that during the Ahmed Gurey times all of Habar Magaadle were lumped together under that banner tells you they were a small clan, at least in comparison to Marexan or Gerri and others. Isaaq were under the protection of Maha Dir for some time and this caused quite a bit of confusion. Even I. M. Lewis who is well travelled in Somaliland will tell you no Isaaq consider themselves Dir.

[Sahibzada]

everything Zumaale and his garacbursi side bitch claim is false.

He's claiming there are T-M70 Habar Awal & Habar Jeclo..Where are they?

His cousins claim Habar Awal str results are more similar to Bareento Oromo then to HJ....Where is the proof?

If all Dir actually descend from one man..why don't you show the str results of different Dir to corroborate your claim?




Zumaale and his Chihuahua are just liars that try to twist facts and are outright liars

[Thanatophiliac]

Sahbizada. Are you sad, that you've been exposed as Oromo?

Go to 23andme forums. Go to both the Haplogroup T and E forums and you will see the threads and the discussions. They are there. 2 Habr Awal Oromos saying they are T. The rest of the Habr Awal had a heart attack. And denounced them and told them they are embarrassing the tol. Go take it up with them. If you don't have an account, then borrow one of your Oromo relatives' account and challenge your clansmen who make the claim

Like, I said before, DNA tells us your the 'garac' Even your own subclan has diverse haplogroups. What a disaster.

[Sahibzada]

I have 23andme and every HA I came across from CM to SM(and our various subclans) has E-V32.Heck we share the same str results...the same can't be said of your Dir

Modal SacadMuuse Somaliland E-V32 12 24 11 10 16-18 11 12 11 13 12 30

Modal CisseMuuse Somaliland E-V32 12 23 11 10 16-18 11 12 11 13 12 30


From woqooyi ila konfuur..you langaabs get slapped.I would kill myself if I was Garacbursi or Surre

[Thanatophiliac]

Why are you trying so hard to prove yourself to me? Are you looking for recognition or something? Your an Oromo. Why are you ashamed? Oromos are a great nation wallahi.

You lied again. Go to the Haplogroup T paternal forums. You must have missed it (maybe on purpose) Or just pure denial.. I wouldn't be surprised if you missed it on purpose. It's there for everyone to see. The thread dates back to at least 1-2 year(s) ago. Have a blast mate

[zumaale]

Prince,

Ogaden and MJ count 30-33 to Darod. There is a discrepency in what MJ count VS what Dhulos count. No one knows why, but I am assuming Dhulos dropped unimportant names. With that in mind how would that sit with most Isaaq counting 17-21 names to Isaaq?

Zumaale,

What does your quote prove? That you can use the search facility?

I believed the Arab story when that was presented to me and when the facts changed I changed my opinion. It only proves I am not attached to this 'myth' dogmatically. I do not care much for it. To answer your question I heard both the Arab story and the alliance story.

You can not say Samaale is a mixture of truth and folklore, it is folklore alright but as to what measure of truth there is to be found in that story is yet to be determined.

You claim that some Isaaq believe they are Dir, I have corrected you a number of times on this. Outside a number of individuals the vast majority of Isaaq consider themselves Isaaq. This is what they will tell you. This is what Somali historians like Lewis will tell you (even when he accepts some other Somalis associate Isaaq with Dir he is clear that Isaaqs themselves do not consider themselves Dir, but a stand alone clan). And here you are telling me that it is true because some random members on Somalinet say so. The same with your claim that Musue Biixi and Buurmadow claim Dir when they did not. All of these claims are false sxb.

As for the Dir elder, that was my point. He is not welcoming his 'cousins' or fellow Dir, but rather officials from Somaliland, there is no mention of Isaaq being Dir at all, which is bizarre for your claim that these are all Dir men having dinner.

Thanatophiliac,

I think it is actually very straight forward. The fact that during the Ahmed Gurey times all of Habar Magaadle were lumped together under that banner tells you they were a small clan, at least in comparison to Marexan or Gerri and others. Isaaq were under the protection of Maha Dir for some time and this caused quite a bit of confusion. Even I. M. Lewis who is well travelled in Somaliland will tell you no Isaaq consider themselves Dir.

You are misunderstanding why I provided that link. I wanted to decipher whether the alliance theory you have been throwing around is a rehash of the Arab fairytale, thank you for confirming that. But you never answered what alternative origin theory was presented to you as part of the alliance claim? Your abtirsi arguments are not full proof in light of the conflicting maternal relations that Somali clans share and the fact that they are not reliable historical sources.

There is truth to the Samaale origin but I never expanded on the extent of it so what is your point?

Again, you misconstrue my stance. To some Isaaqs, Dir does not mean abandoning the Isaaq identity, it is just an identification with Isaaq Mahamed Xiniftere Dir, not the fake Ibn Hashim one. This is something I have personally encountered and not because some Isaaq Somalinetters identify as Dir. This is not an observation only I have made.

http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream ... Africa.pdf

most Somalis, including some Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Samaron (Gadabursi). However, recently in the Arta (Djibouti) conference, they maintained to be a clan-family directly related to the Prophet’s line, claiming the same number of seats as the Darod or the Hawiye, instead of having to share them with other Dir.

You quote I.M.Lewis yet he himself came to the conclusion that his sources lied about not being Dir and arabised their lineage which against supports my argument. He was firm in staying that Somalis consider them a subclan of Dir. Even Richard found contradictions in the conflicting statements provided by his sources and dismissed the Arab fairytale.

As for the 'Boqoor' why would he state the obvious? By the he is not the only self styled Dir Suldaan, there is a HY one too.

Prince,

Ogaden and MJ count 30-33 to Darod. There is a discrepency in what MJ count VS what Dhulos count. No one knows why, but I am assuming Dhulos dropped unimportant names. With that in mind how would that sit with most Isaaq counting 17-21 names to Isaaq?

Zumaale,

What does your quote prove? That you can use the search facility?

I believed the Arab story when that was presented to me and when the facts changed I changed my opinion. It only proves I am not attached to this 'myth' dogmatically. I do not care much for it. To answer your question I heard both the Arab story and the alliance story.

You can not say Samaale is a mixture of truth and folklore, it is folklore alright but as to what measure of truth there is to be found in that story is yet to be determined.

You claim that some Isaaq believe they are Dir, I have corrected you a number of times on this. Outside a number of individuals the vast majority of Isaaq consider themselves Isaaq. This is what they will tell you. This is what Somali historians like Lewis will tell you (even when he accepts some other Somalis associate Isaaq with Dir he is clear that Isaaqs themselves do not consider themselves Dir, but a stand alone clan). And here you are telling me that it is true because some random members on Somalinet say so. The same with your claim that Musue Biixi and Buurmadow claim Dir when they did not. All of these claims are false sxb.

As for the Dir elder, that was my point. He is not welcoming his 'cousins' or fellow Dir, but rather officials from Somaliland, there is no mention of Isaaq being Dir at all, which is bizarre for your claim that these are all Dir men having dinner.

Thanatophiliac,

I think it is actually very straight forward. The fact that during the Ahmed Gurey times all of Habar Magaadle were lumped together under that banner tells you they were a small clan, at least in comparison to Marexan or Gerri and others. Isaaq were under the protection of Maha Dir for some time and this caused quite a bit of confusion. Even I. M. Lewis who is well travelled in Somaliland will tell you no Isaaq consider themselves Dir.

You are misunderstanding why I provided that link. I wanted to decipher whether the alliance theory you have been throwing around is a rehash of the Arab fairytale, thank you for confirming that. But you never answered what alternative origin theory was presented to you as part of the alliance claim? Your abtirsi arguments are not full proof in light of the conflicting maternal relations that Somali clans share and the fact that they are not reliable historical sources.

There is truth to the Samaale origin but I never expanded on the extent of it so what is your point?

Again, you misconstrue my stance. To some Isaaqs, Dir does not mean abandoning the Isaaq, it is just an identification with Isaaq Mahamed Xiniftere Dir, not the Ibn Hashim one. This is something I have personally encountered and not because some Isaaq Somalinetters identify as Dir. This is not an observation only I have made.

http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream ... Africa.pdf

most Somalis, including some Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Samaron (Gadabursi). However, recently in the Arta (Djibouti) conference, they maintained to be a clan-family directly related to the Prophet’s line, claiming the same number of seats as the Darod or the Hawiye, instead of having to share them with other Dir.

You quote I.M.Lewis yet he himself came to the conclusion that his sources lied about not being Dir and arabised their lineage which against supports my argument. He was firm in staying that Somalis consider them a subclan of Dir. Even Richard found contradictions in the conflicting statements provided by his sources and dismissed the Arab fairytale.

As for the 'Boqoor' why would he state the obvious?

Prince,

Ogaden and MJ count 30-33 to Darod. There is a discrepency in what MJ count VS what Dhulos count. No one knows why, but I am assuming Dhulos dropped unimportant names. With that in mind how would that sit with most Isaaq counting 17-21 names to Isaaq?

Zumaale,

What does your quote prove? That you can use the search facility?

I believed the Arab story when that was presented to me and when the facts changed I changed my opinion. It only proves I am not attached to this 'myth' dogmatically. I do not care much for it. To answer your question I heard both the Arab story and the alliance story.

You can not say Samaale is a mixture of truth and folklore, it is folklore alright but as to what measure of truth there is to be found in that story is yet to be determined.

You claim that some Isaaq believe they are Dir, I have corrected you a number of times on this. Outside a number of individuals the vast majority of Isaaq consider themselves Isaaq. This is what they will tell you. This is what Somali historians like Lewis will tell you (even when he accepts some other Somalis associate Isaaq with Dir he is clear that Isaaqs themselves do not consider themselves Dir, but a stand alone clan). And here you are telling me that it is true because some random members on Somalinet say so. The same with your claim that Musue Biixi and Buurmadow claim Dir when they did not. All of these claims are false sxb.

As for the Dir elder, that was my point. He is not welcoming his 'cousins' or fellow Dir, but rather officials from Somaliland, there is no mention of Isaaq being Dir at all, which is bizarre for your claim that these are all Dir men having dinner.

Thanatophiliac,

I think it is actually very straight forward. The fact that during the Ahmed Gurey times all of Habar Magaadle were lumped together under that banner tells you they were a small clan, at least in comparison to Marexan or Gerri and others. Isaaq were under the protection of Maha Dir for some time and this caused quite a bit of confusion. Even I. M. Lewis who is well travelled in Somaliland will tell you no Isaaq consider themselves Dir.

You are misunderstanding why I provided that link. I wanted to decipher whether the alliance theory you have been throwing around is a rehash of the Arab fairytale, thank you for confirming that. But you never answered what alternative origin theory was presented to you as part of the alliance claim? Your abtirsi arguments are not full proof in light of the conflicting maternal relations that Somali clans share and the fact that they are not reliable historical sources.

There is truth to the Samaale origin but I never expanded on the extent of it so what is your point?

Again, you misconstrue my stance. To some Isaaqs, Dir does not mean abandoning the Isaaq, it is just an identification with Isaaq Mahamed Xiniftere Dir, not the Ibn Hashim one. This is something I have personally encountered and not because some Isaaq Somalinetters identify as Dir. This is not an observation only I have made.

http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream ... Africa.pdf

most Somalis, including some Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Samaron (Gadabursi). However, recently in the Arta (Djibouti) conference, they maintained to be a clan-family directly related to the Prophet’s line, claiming the same number of seats as the Darod or the Hawiye, instead of having to share them with other Dir.

You quote I.M.Lewis yet he himself came to the conclusion that his sources lied about not being Dir and arabised their lineage which against supports my argument. He was firm in staying that Somalis consider them a subclan of Dir. Even Richard found contradictions in the conflicting statements provided by his sources and dismissed the Arab fairytale.

As for the 'Boqoor' why would he state the obvious? By the way, he is not the only self styled Dir 'Suldaan or Boqoor', there is a HY one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfegntLgGwE&app=desktop