Al Hallaj,Iblis and the Somali

[Basra-]

Yep, it sure does. I like the "practical" believer part. It shows u r balancing between head and heart in faith. Mashallaaah. That's my way too!

[WiredForGood]

Yep, it sure does. I like the "practical" believer part. It shows u r balancing between head and heart in faith. Mashallaaah. That's my way too!

Head agrees with heart. Otherwise, you can't have faith in something you are not convinced about their chance of existence. To me, a believer is someone who put some thoughts into the idea of life after death and then agrees with the idea's validity. Plus all other reasonable practical applications to life(charity, worship, kindness, etc) and wisdom that come with the faith. Ultimate goal of faith is to reign in our souls that are prone to self destructiveness.

[Basra-]

Wire!

Yes! Self destructiveness walaahi! U hit the nail. Yesterday I saw two somali kids on the train drunk like heck! It was a very depressing thing to see! Years ago when I came to the west, adoon African americans and native Indians used to be like that. Now it is muslim Somalis. Sad

[weydamal]

Basra,

Your right, this thread was, in a way in response to your question on the other thread and my surprise at encountering the the obscure thoughts of a medieval Sufi heretic, so casually narrated in a gathering of Somalis. The fascinating thing for me was not what the Somali guy said, because I immediately appreciated the similarity of his narrative to that of Hallaj, but how he had acquired this information of an obscure Sufi heretic ' s reflections on the nature of Iblis. If it's acquired from book knowledge, then it's of no interest to me. However, if he acquired it from oral history, then it points out the existance of some remnant of the heretical Sufi thought of Hallaj, in Somali oral culture. Since there is no way of establishing this, other than interrogating the Somali guy, this remains an academic mystery for now.

Hallaj’s reflections on Iblis are his, and not mine as I have stated before. His reflections are heretical and not part of mainstream Islam, as I have stated before. He was actually tortured and executed by the orthodox Muslims for his heresy.

The question he posed was why was Iblis , who was created to worship God only and to bow before him, punished for refusing to bow to Adam, a mere mortal. To Hallaj, Fircoon commited the greatest sin of Shirk, by claiming to be God , while Iblis refused to bow to other than God, and was punished not for shirk, but for disobedience. He disobeyed God because of his unwavering belief in the Oneness of God.

These are the philosophical musings of Hallaj the Sufi mystic and heretic, which were of course rejected by mainstream Islam, and for which he paid the ultimate price.

Like Adali, you make the same mistake of assuming that these are my thoughts or that I agree with Hallaj. What was interesting to me was how historical motifs reappear in our world, how the philosophy of Hallaj was so casually narrated in a meeting of Somalis.

[Basra-]

weydani


I think u r over thinking it huuno. That man who related that iblis story in the clip was just using his mind, and own concoctions. I don't think it is because it stemmed from oral history. (although I could be wrong) My hunch is, he was using his own logic, which came off very disturbing because he was basically saying Iblis was better than Pharaoh. (which is mind boggling If u ask me. NOTHING is worst that Iblis)

Iblis, should be held as the greatest danger to humanity. The greatest evil. I mean, literally every sin, and consequences of sins is related to him. Pharaoh commited a sin that the Iblis whispered or instructed him. To me, weydani u and this man who is defending Iblis seem to be possessed by Iblis by bringing an intellectual discussion that can go quickly to heresy and blasphemous.


Until , recently with my ISLAM education through the great Muft Menk Ismail, Mashaalaah I have come to conclude IBLIS is my enemy. Literally, I walk thinking he is my enemy now. Before this, Iblis was a far distant hypo theory. Iblis lives and will continue to live. God is great to bless us an escape route. All evil and sin we do --is DAMNED to the IBLIS!!! May AlLAAH swt protect us from his whispers and evil Ameen

[DaacasBiyo]

What a story, it's just too bad the muzzies don't know how to make movies like the jews. Heads up, none of their lies about Fircoon happened.
Kemet was the GREATEST civilization the Africans have ever created and no jews or homo christians or pedo muzzies will ever erase that.

So this Somali muzzie who believes in this fake plagiarized muzzie satan you call well read ain't nothing but a mentally enslaved sabool.

You have completely lost the plot. I was with you when you were anti white-supremacy but now you are clearly anti somali as 90% of your post suggest. piss off !

Lol, you ain't funny feminine boy, stick to your women stories you get from your female friends, we're not on the same level.

[DaacasBiyo]

Wire

I love your style of reasoning. Its very robotic, and sort of lifeless.

Robots don't have thoughts. They have logic sequences programmed into them. You tell them what to do given some circumstances and that is it. Here is a copy of an example of a code to teach a robot to move from 0 to 180 degree when Basra's big Fat ass blocks the way.

#include <Servo.h>

Servo myservo;
int pos = 0; // this is basra big futo position marker at zero

void setup()
{
myservo.attach(9);
}

void loop()
{
for(pos = 0; pos < 180; pos += 1) // variable ‘pos’ goes from 0 degrees to 180 degrees in steps of 1 degree when Basra's big futo blocks the way
{
myservo.write(pos); // tell servo to go to position in variable ‘pos’
delay(15);
}
for(pos = 180; pos>=1; pos-=1)
{
myservo.write(pos);
delay(15); // waits 15ms at each degree to see if Basra moved her ass.
}
}

Jamaac Bond, Your robot will not reach the 180 degree position and will be stuck at 1 degree when it tries to return to its original 0 degree position.

If you want this robot to go from 0 degree position to 180 degree position and then return to its 0 position, you should write your loops like this

for(pos = 0; pos <= 180; pos += 1) // variable ‘pos’ goes from 0 degrees to 180 degrees in steps of 1 degree when Basra's big futo blocks the way
{
myservo.write(pos); // tell servo to go to position in variable ‘pos’
delay(15);
}

for(pos = 180; pos>=0; pos-=1)
{
myservo.write(pos);
delay(15); // waits 15ms at each degree to see if Basra moved her ass.
}


Jamaac Bond, don't make white people stuck in their bathroom with your clunky robots they will sue you to saboolnimo.

[weydamal]

Basra

Maybe I'm over thinking the connections. It could just be the ramblings of an overly emotional Somali man. Let me leave it at that. Two things however.
Intellectual discussions and ideas or even new technology will always be contentious and may be labelled blasphameous or not depending on the religious persuasions of the actors involved and the social and cultural environments that give context to the debate. For example there are Muslims like the Wahhabi who think that God has actual hands and sits on an actual throne, while most mainstream Muslims think God us immaterial to consider him having physical attributes like a human is blasphameous. The Wahhabi position is heretical, but many Somalis adhere to this deviant sect, and so accept and propagate their heresies. There is therefore no difference between the heresy of Hallaj who defends Iblis and Abdul Wahhab who thinks God has actual hands and feet. Both are heresies. Both are blasphameous.

The other thing is your contention that I may be possessed. I don't know how engaging in an intellectual discussion can be interpreted as possession. Possession means a deity or spirit has taken over your faculties. Belief in possession predates Islam and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. It's a very old tradition. The most famous tradition among Somalis is Saar, which ironically mostly posseses women, like you.That you believe in God and possession should tell you something about yourself, that you have integrated pre Islamic and Islamic notions in your thinking, just like all of us, to be fair. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Basra-]

weydani@Lol

Me possessed? I think Islam acknowledges the possession of humans by jinns right? Not sure if Quran states it though.


As to the idea of imagining God, whether he has hands or not, its really unnecessary. But theoretically speaking, God does sit on a thrown. In Quran many surah state God is the king of Mankind. However, I will mention only Surah al nas--the mention of God being the "king" of Mankind. Why use the mortal human terminology of "king" if he wasn't a king and didn't sit on a throne? Its not blasphemous to think that.

Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem
Qul a'uzu birabbin naas
Malikin naas
Ilaahin naas
Min sharril was waasil khannaas
Al lazee yuwas wisu fee sudoorin naas
Minal jinnati wan naas (End Juz 30)


Malikin nas means KING OF MANKIND!


So here, God himself tells us he is the King of Mankind. So, no walaal, it is not a blasphemous utterance. As to the hands and legs---I think in Quran-- God said he created mankind in the best form. Meaning Man is better formed than all his creations. SO I am sure our supreme creator cannot be compared to his best creation.


Verse
Text
Transliteration
Translation [1]

بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيم
b-ismi llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful
114.1.
قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ ٱلنَّاسِ
qul ʾaʿūḏu bi-rabbi n-nās
Say, "I seek refuge with the Lord of Mankind
114.2.
مَلِكِ ٱلنَّاسِ
maliki n-nās
The King of Mankind
114.3.
إِلَٰهِ ٱلنَّاسِ
ʾilāhi n-nās
The God of Mankind
114.4.
مِن شَرِّ ٱلْوَسْوَاسِ ٱلْخَنَّاسِ
min šarri l-waswāsi l-ḫannās
From the evil of the whisperer, who returns over and over again,
114.5.
ٱلَّذِى يُوَسْوِسُ فِى صُدُورِ ٱلنَّاسِ
Allaḏī yuwaswisu fī ṣudūri n-nās
Who whispers [evil] into the hearts of Mankind-
114.6.
مِنَ ٱلْجِنَّةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ
Mina l-ǧinnati wa-n-nās
Of Jinn or Mankind-

[weydamal]

Basra

Walaal, to attribute a body, dimensions and confinement or limits to God , who is eternal and uncreated, is a Wahhabi heresy you should be wary of. As usual they have propagated these false ideas of Ibn Taymiyya, the misguided and debased sheikh who was imprisoned by the Muslim authorities and ulema of Egypt and Syria at that time. This is not the position of orthodox, mainstream Sunnis, and certainly not the position of the Shafi'i madhab that we Somalis belong to.The foremost Shafi'i scholar of his time Ibn Hajar al Haytami's refutation of Ibn Taymiyya more than amply adresses this subject.

You reason like the misguided and debased Wahhabi sheikh al Uthaymin who believes that God has a form and actually sits on a throne in person. This is heresy and kufr according to mainstream Sunni scholars. For something to have form, it must have length, width, thickness, depth, structure and components. To attribute this to God is blasphameous and is not the position of orthodox Sunni Islam. It's a heresy propagated by the Wahhabi.

God is king in a metaphorical sense, as a ruler, not in the literal sense of a physical being who sits on a physical throne. He is uncreated, eternal, without dimensions or confines. To believe otherwise is to commit kufr according to mainstream Sunni Muslims.


In a way this belief mirrors the Christian belief that Jesus is God incarnate or God in the flesh. The Christians give physical, human attributes to God whom they say appeared in this world, in the flesh, as a human being called Jesus. The Wahhabi equivalent is that God has an actual body and sits on an actual throne. I don't know whether there's a historical relationship between these ideas, that's for the historians to unearth.

[weydamal]

Basra

Possession is a common ailment of Somali women, though not their exclusive preserve as it also affects some men. It goes under various names like Saar , Rooxaan, Mingis, Wadaaddo, Boorane, Luumbi, Sharax etc. It's more prevalent among women who are somewhat confined or constrained socially, either by religion or customs. That's why it's very common among Somali women of religious persuasions.

My rational mind attributes it to hysteria or sexual repression. My religious mind ,of course ,attributes it to the Jinn. Either way, some release is needed for it.

This of course doesn't apply to you, because I don't know you, and I cannot call someone I don't know as being possessed.

[weydamal]

The pre Wahhabi Somalis, being an astute, canny and rational people, dealt practically with the possesion issue. As soon as a young woman exhibited signs of rooxaan or some similar malady, after a short ritual or ceremony , she was promptly married off. A good honeymoon was enough to cure this malady and cool the fires of possession.

Nowadays, the dull, austere, unimaginative Wahhabi Somalis, taking directions from their Saudi masters, engage in endless quran recitations and physical beatings to cure a malady which our forefathers understood only too well and treated sensibly.

[Basra-]

Weydani you are your Roxaan theory.



So sex is usually the answer to the hysteria? Funny that Hysteria has always plagued women dating back to Aristole days of Greece. They used to blame it on the womb of a woman wabbling up and down. Then the romans said it was a mixture of womb and mind. The Otto empire improved the roman theory a little with religious notions in it. And then Einstein narrowed it down to mind and sexual frustration. I love how humanity transforms wallaahi, our ignorance is collective and amazing. God must be laughing loud at us above the sky.



PS I agree--the Malikin Nas of Illaahi is a theory more than practical. Allaahu Yaaclaam --the best way to explain the unknown, is to say Allaah swt knows best!

[WiredForGood]

Basra

Walaal, to attribute a body, dimensions and confinement or limits to God , who is eternal and uncreated, is a Wahhabi heresy you should be wary of. As usual they have propagated these false ideas of Ibn Taymiyya, the misguided and debased sheikh who was imprisoned by the Muslim authorities and ulema of Egypt and Syria at that time. This is not the position of orthodox, mainstream Sunnis, and certainly not the position of the Shafi'i madhab that we Somalis belong to.The foremost Shafi'i scholar of his time Ibn Hajar al Haytami's refutation of Ibn Taymiyya more than amply adresses this subject.

You reason like the misguided and debased Wahhabi sheikh al Uthaymin who believes that God has a form and actually sits on a throne in person. This is heresy and kufr according to mainstream Sunni scholars. For something to have form, it must have length, width, thickness, depth, structure and components. To attribute this to God is blasphameous and is not the position of orthodox Sunni Islam. It's a heresy propagated by the Wahhabi.

God is king in a metaphorical sense, as a ruler, not in the literal sense of a physical being who sits on a physical throne. He is uncreated, eternal, without dimensions or confines. To believe otherwise is to commit kufr according to mainstream Sunni Muslims.


In a way this belief mirrors the Christian belief that Jesus is God incarnate or God in the flesh. The Christians give physical, human attributes to God whom they say appeared in this world, in the flesh, as a human being called Jesus. The Wahhabi equivalent is that God has an actual body and sits on an actual throne. I don't know whether there's a historical relationship between these ideas, that's for the historians to unearth.

The position of Sunni Islam is to accept God's attributes as they are mentioned in the Quran and in the Authentic prophet's sayings without changing the meaning of the words in where they occur. Denying those attributes is un-Islamic which contradicts your stated positions as sunni.

Also, I would like to see this Uthaymeen man's expressed opinion on this and where he said God sits on a throne. Quote him please and drop a source.

[weydamal]

Baayo,
As I said earlier, hysteria is more prevalent among women who are somewhat confined socially by the dominant culture or religious mores. If the cause is sexual repression then the remedy is pretty obvious. But hysteria could also be a protest against the social order, the patriarchy if you like,and not necessarily sexual in nature. The remedy in this case is a change in the social order. The widespread saar rituals in pre Wahhabi Somalia can be seen as a deprivation cult, used by women to protest their constrained social status. Saar is not dead you think, these deep seated beliefs don't simply die, they just metamorphasise into different forms that maintain their essence. Because of the parochial view of Wahhabi Somalis, women have transformed the Saar cult into Abaay Sitidey or Nebi Amaan gatherings(very common in Northern Somalia). Saar with an Islamic veneer.

In addition, if you follow Somali news, there was a sheikh called Cabdi Xaq, who caused quite a stir in Northern Somalia a few months ago, mass hysteria actually, and his healing sessions were attended by thousands of adherents, mainly women. Of course the Wahhabi sheikhs like Sheikh Berberawi, were not too happy with this usurper who was attracting more congregants than the most famous Wahabbi sheikhs, in addition to depriving them of the tithes they had grown accustomed to, and they denounced him as a deviant Muslim. Unfortunately for them, this sheikh has more followers than them because he represents indegenous Somali Islam as opposed to the highly Arabised Wahabbi heresy that Berberawi and ilk represent.
Again , mental or physical illness such as asthma or epilepsy,whose cure was unknown at that time, would be interpreted as possession and the Somali shaman or calaqad as she was known, would perform the healing rituals, in ceremonies involving exorcism and ritual offerings.

Not everything stems from repressed sexuality, baayo, that is too Freudian, there are other causes of hysteria and possession.