Al Hallaj,Iblis and the Somali

[WiredForGood]

And of all my studies of Christianity, Sufi teachings and beliefs from saint worship to God being in objects and beings, they are the closest to Christians in beliefs. So, it was baffling to see you state the opposite.

[weydamal]

Wired,

The anthropomorphism of Wahhabis ie attributing to God physical attributes, like hands, face etc, is well known in the literature and championed by their Sheikh Ibn Taymiyya and contemporary scholars like Ibn Baz, Uthaymeen and their Jamaican convert Bilal Phillips. Do your own research but as beginning you may read this thread:
https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewto ... 9#p4028642

As for Christian belief being found in Sufi teachings, of course Christian, Jewish, gnostic, Persian, Greek thoughts have permeated into those teachings in various degrees. Even in mainstream Sunni Islam, there is the phenomenon of Israilliyat,where biblical and Jewish Talmud themes entered the Islamic traditions. As you know some of the earliest Muslims were previously Jews or Christian like Kaab al Akhbar and Abdullah hin Salam who was a Jewish rabbi. They transmitted many oral traditions from biblical and Jewish sources which became part of mainstream Islam. For example much of what came to be known as qisas al anbiya or tales of the prophet's are Israilliyat.

The wahhabi Christian connection in terms of attributing physical attributes to divinity is my own conjecture, it's certainly not authoritative, but I think it deserves further analysis.

[Basra-]

Wey

u r obsessed with ibn Taymiyya! Why? By the way, I noticed Sheikh Yasir Qadhi respects him a lot . I mean he took his studies in Saudi, so I guess Ibn Taymiyya is big deal there, the land of Wahabism. Wikipedia lists him as a controversial figure who encourage the venerations of saints and visiting their thombs! Huh? I didn't know Islam had Saints like the Christians. Do they Wey????? Please clarify. Thank you!

[DaacasBiyo]

^ The Nestorian nun of the christian syriac church is surprised? of course muzzies have saints, they were Christians before this made up religion.

[Basra-]

^ The Nestorian nun of the christian syriac church is surprised? of course muzzies have saints, they were Christians before this made up religion.

Dacas

Yes. I doubt Somalis were Christians before we became Muslims. Well it wont be completely impossible, as we are neighbor with Ethiopian, and Ethiopians were definitely Christians during Islam rises and Muslim Migration to Abyssinia .

[DaacasBiyo]

^ The Nestorian nun of the christian syriac church is surprised? of course muzzies have saints, they were Christians before this made up religion.

Dacas

Yes. I doubt Somalis were Christians before we became Muslims. Well it wont be completely impossible, as we are neighbor with Ethiopian, and Ethiopians were definitely Christians during Islam rises and Muslim Migration to Abyssinia .

Lol, ur Ayrab masters were Christians too before they decided to create their own religious movement for political reasons & now it's Wahhabism.

[weydamal]

Ibn Taymiyya and his more heretical views for which he was incarcerated by the Muslim authorities of the day form the inspiration of the heretical Wahhabi sect that has distorted the peaceful message of Islam and transformed it into a rigid, fanatical, literalist dogma that inevitability leads to extremism. In their blind devotion to Ibn Taymiyya, they nonetheless selectively pick from him what's extreme and ignore what is moderate. For example, in their fanatical hatred of Sufis, Wahhabis conveniently ignore or keep silent about the fact that Ibn Taymiyya belong to the Sufi order of Qaddiryyah and was a great admirer of the order's founder Cabdulqaadir Jaylaani.

Yasir Qadhi has abandoned and denounced Wahhabism, which he adhered to in his younger days.


As for saints, the Arabic word used for this is Wali, which means helper or friend.It just means a person who is especially pious and a spiritual guide of some sort. As a concept it is more developed in Sufi Islam. There are many Muslim saints like Jilani, Badawi, Shadhili, Chishti etc venerated in different Muslim countries.


We as Somalis have our own saints like Abadir of Harar, Al Kawnayn or Aw Barkhadle, Sheekh Xuseen Baaliyaal etc


Whether you believe in saints or not is, of course, an entirely different matter.

[weydamal]

Sheekh Xuseen Baaliyaal, for those who don't know is buried in Annajina or Dirre Sheikh Hussein in eastern Bale region of Ethiopia. His shrine attracts some 200,000 Muslim pilgrims from the Horn of Africa annually, more than visit Mecca. Here is a an old report on this :

http://www.grands-reportages.com/report ... kh-hussein

[Basra-]

Ibn Taymiyya and his more heretical views for which he was incarcerated by the Muslim authorities of the day form the inspiration of the heretical Wahhabi sect that has distorted the peaceful message of Islam and transformed it into a rigid, fanatical, literalist dogma that inevitability leads to extremism. In their blind devotion to Ibn Taymiyya, they nonetheless selectively pick from him what's extreme and ignore what is moderate. For example, in their fanatical hatred of Sufis, Wahhabis conveniently ignore or keep silent about the fact that Ibn Taymiyya belong to the Sufi order of Qaddiryyah and was a great admirer of the order's founder Cabdulqaadir Jaylaani.

Yasir Qadhi has abandoned and denounced Wahhabism, which he adhered to in his younger days.


As for saints, the Arabic word used for this is Wali, which means helper or friend.It just means a person who is especially pious and a spiritual guide of some sort. As a concept it is more developed in Sufi Islam. There are many Muslim saints like Jilani, Badawi, Shadhili, Chishti etc venerated in different Muslim countries.


We as Somalis have our own saints like Abadir of Harar, Al Kawnayn or Aw Barkhadle, Sheekh Xuseen Baaliyaal etc


Whether you believe in saints or not is, of course, an entirely different matter.

weydani

I just completed watching Yasir Qadhi on YOUTUBE, his summary of his dissertation on ibn Taymiyya. It seems he is a huge fan of him. From the clip, Ibn Taymiyya comes off as a rational, balanced, and polemist. Yasir admits he is biased towards him, and admits he is sympathetic. Personally, I get a feeling he was a practical guy. His dissertation was mostly about Akel and Neqal -- basically intellectual vs Quran/hadith text. I really enjoyed it. I didn't get the feeling Ibn Taymiyya was a heretic. Yasir respects him very much. As to his imprisonment, it could be that it was a matter of politic prisoner, given Taymiyya supported different administration, and lets not forget he is not from Damascus where he grew up. Ibn Taymiyya was a born Turkish.


PS Weydani is your name 'abdi abdi' in YOUTUBE???

[weydamal]

Baayo,

Look at who's obsessed with Ibn Taymiyya!

Ibn Taymiyya was imprisoned several times for his heretical beliefs, one of which was anthropomorphism or the belief that God has physical attributes like hands and feet. He was a minor figure, rejected by the Sunni establishment during his lifetime, and resurrected by Saudi money. My interest in him is that he is used by the Wahhabi, often out of context to be fair to him, to justify their extreme positions and khawaarij ideology. Take these few issues which are shared by all extremists from Isis to Shabab:
They reject the four Sunni madhab or schools of thought, though in reality they adhere to the Hanbali school.
They believe in Takfir or declaring a Muslim a disbeliever, therefore legitimising his killing. That's why they kill more Muslims than anyone else. Have you forgotten how many Somalis have died at the hands of shabab?
They reject Sufism or mystical Islam
They hate Shia more than the Jews and Christian
They reject rationality and believe in literalism.

And many others. Which is not surprising as he belonged to the Hanbali school of thought, like the Najdi Arabs, the most conservative madhab of all. Ibn Hanbal was, as you will recall, a victim of the mihna inquisition of Caliph Al Ma 'mun, and was tortured by people who believed in the rationalist Mu'tazila thought. As a result Ibn Hanbal hated rationalist with a passion and founded the most traditional and conservative madhab which has also influenced the Wahhabi.

As I said earlier, the Wahhabi tend to take from Ibn Taymiyya what they want and ignore what they don't like. They have edited his books to remove what they don't like. For example though he criticised some heretical Sufi innovations, nonetheless he was sympathetic to Sufis and admired their saints like Cabdulqaadir Jaylaani.

The Wahhabi however venerate his more heretical views and those of his students like Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyya and Ibn Kathir. You will not see them praising or promoting Shafi'i scholars like Haytami.


Why are you obsessed with Ibn Taymiyya, have you come under the spell of Wahhabis?

There are better scholars in the Shafi'i madhab which we Somalis should study . Ibn Kathir, though a Shafi'i was influenced by the Hanbali heretic.

[weydamal]

Ibn Kathir, however, did not share most of the heresies of Ibn Taymiyya.

[Basra-]

weydani

I am not obsessed with Ibn Taymiyya. In fact, I have not read anything about him except his connection with Sheikh Y. Qadhi. I respect Qadhi, and he respects Ibn Taymiyya, that is the end of my support for the Hadith Sahicist!


Qadhi is very rational and very correct. I mean, u have to respect Taymiyya for being an original. All these people u r mentioning came after him -correct? SO, r u saying they were not influenced by him? Come on now.


Weydani visiting the graves of pious so called "Walis" is also very haram. I mean, seriously. Why are muslims over thinking and over complicating things??? Why cant we stick with Quran and Hadith Sahih! Period!

[weydamal]

I think you are missing the point. Ibn Taymiyya was an obscure fringe medieval figure who would have remained in obscurity were it not for Saudi petrol dollars. His views can hardly be called mainstream Islam. Imagine if Abdul Wahhab picked on Al Ma'ari, another obscure medieval heretic as his inspiration or the rationalist Mu'tazila for that matter. Wahhabis today would be spreading the ideas of al Ma'ari. And do you know the ideas of Al Ma'ari:

Religious rites are a means of enslaving the masses and religious institutions serve as a source of power and income for religious and other leaders

He valued reason over tradition

He advocated vegetarianism

He thought that the Hajj pilgrimage was a pagan ritual

And so on and so forth.


If Abdel Wahhab had decided to pick on Al Ma'ari instead of Ibn Taymiyya, both of whom were heretics, you can imagine what difference there would have been in his thoughts.


The point is that there are several interpretations of Islam, ranging from the liberal to the conservative. He who has the dollar, the zeal and the means to propagate his version, ends up winning more converts. This has been the case of Wahhabi Islam. It is however now in its death throes as a discredited version of Islam, and even in its homeland of Saudia, it's being reformed.

However it's impact in the fringes and backwaters of the Muslim world has been devastating, giving birth to boko haram, shabab, abu sayyaf, Isis etc and the originators of the cult are moving away from it, while we in desperate, impoverished, war torn, disease ridden , stone age and ignorant Somalia are quibbling over the size of the beard, the length of the robe, the position of the hands in prayer, which hadith is saxiix which is not, is sufism right or wrong, are the shias worse than jews, and a thousand petty issues that have dumbed down a once intelligent and rational race.

The Somali song expresses it best:

Aduunyada hanweynidaa milmaa loo halgamayaaye
Hawadana rag baa dagoo dayaxa hoos usoo dayaayee
Dadkaa ninkii hurdee taa ogeyn halistii weeyaanee
Anagana haleelada dhashiyo hilibka mooyaane
Inaan dhiig dhulkeena u hurnaa wey haboontahaye! 

[Basra-]

Wey ok I think u r thinking too much into this. Do u have to call Taymiyya a heretic?

Wey I think u have studied too much into this characters. Why don't u concentrate this energy on studying your prophet saw ? The Sunnah. The Quran. Do u read the Quran?

[weydamal]

Baayo

People like certainly because it makes them feel safe. To ask too many questions is to open a terrifying portal, a door the opens into the unknown. Fortunately, to reflect on things is also too human. Finding a balance between the two is not the easiest thing in the world.

There is nothing wrong with reading the Quran and Hadith, there are great spiritual benefits to be found therein. We are Muslims of the Shafi'i madhab, and this has regulated our spiritual and temporal lives for millenia.

However as our grandfathers used to say:

Ilaahey baa jiraa jidka looma seexdo.


How to separate the divine from the dross is worthy of reflection.

What do you think of the following hadith.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease." Bukhari - Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537: 

Narrated Saad: Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."   Bukhari - Volume 7, Book 65, Number 356: 


Narrated 'Abdullah : A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in his ears."
Bukhari - Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245: 

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The people asked the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): Can we perform ablution out of the well of Buda'ah, which is a well into which menstrual clothes, dead dogs and stinking things were thrown? He replied: Water is pure and is not defiled by anything. Sunan
Abi Dawud Book 1, Number 66