Al Hallaj,Iblis and the Somali

[Basra-]

Wey

I think u r right, asking too many questions and digging deep is not a good thing at all. A moderation is the best. Islam actually promotes moderations.

The narrated hadith u mentioned whether factualy true or not, seem harmless to me. I mean, the "Fly" one is a little bit too much. But the rest have some truth to it and can be verified from Quran, which to me is the final and true word. I believe in the Quran 100%! For example the benefit of eating dates is well documented in Quran. It was said in Surah Maryaam, that when the mother of Issa/jesus raa was having the baby Issa Asw-- Allaah swt instructed her to eat dates. According to Quran dates is full of iron which a pregnant woman lacks during pregnancy and needs for her milk and for her strength. U can go watch Mufti Menk Ismael on youtube if u want to know more about this , under his prophet series --prophet Issa saw.


The urination I am not so sure, but the last hadith it kinda makes sense because also in Quran--fresh water is mentioned to cleanse u of Sheeytaans nacaalad on you while on the bed waking up. It is said the reason one feels lazy is because of Sheydaan. The moment u get up and put water on your face or shower he is off u! So there is some correlation there!

[weydamal]

At least you do not blindly adhere to the Wahhabi beliefs that these kinds of hadiths are literally true and must be adhered to. We Somalis are too poor , and suffer from periodic bouts of cholera and dysentery. To abandon hygienic practices because of a hadith that contradicts all sense it to doom our poor Somalis to disease and death. We must fight fight the Wahhabi disease of literalism and the abandonment of sense and rationality.

I find Ismail Menk a bit of a conundrum. He is from a well known Deobendi Indian family. Yet he has Wahhabi/Salafist leanings. He has not come out clearly on what madhab he follows, and this is typical of Wahhabis. I suspect he practices taqqiya, the well known Shia tactic of hiding your true belief, and appearing to others as something else. Even if he is Deobendi like his family, Deobendi are Hanafi with clear leanings to Wahhabis. Deobendis if you remember are the spiritual fathers of the Taliban, and many of the Taliban were Deobendi.

I don't take my knowledge from Ismail Menk, a self styled mufti with obvious Salafi leanings. I hesitate to learn from people whose background and beliefs are obscure to me.I would rather study, for example, the Ghumari brothers of Morocco, who are much more scholarly.


A word on this current Muslim trend, especially Somalis, to deify their sheikhs and give them blind allegiance, and follow their fatwas one should remember the following Quranic verse, which was adressed to the Jews, but applies to Muslims of today:

Ittakhaduu ahbaaruhum wa ruhbaanuhum arbaaaba min duuni laahi

they have taken their scholars and monks as Lords besides Allah

Surah At Tawba 9:31


That is why when they tell you to exchange your daughter for an apple, you blindly comply.


Remember the debate about Sheikh Umal who said hyena meat was xalaal and some ignorant Somalis started eating it? Well they forgot the hadith about the Prophet who was offered grilled lizard meat, and as he stretched out his hand to take the meat, a woman informed him that it was lizard meat, and he withdrew his hand. Khalid bin Walid then asked him if the meat was haram, and the prophet replied, no, but it is not found in the land of my people and I personally do not like it.

Remember this next time you are offered hyena meat, though it's available in our land, and approved by Sheekh Umal,I have no recollection of it being eaten in Somali culture.

[Basra-]

Wey

It seems u r extremely PC scholarly. I mean, I give my salute to you for your study and interest. Especially insights on Mufti Menk Ismael. I have no doubt he is a deobendi. I also have no doubt he is a Wahabist, But Allaah swt forgive me because I cannot assume if he didn't declare. But my assumption is based on his historical race, and what they practiced, and his education of jurisprudence in Medina. (like Sh. Yasir Qadhi) I also appreciate that he has not said out loudly where he stands. (this is wise because it brings forcus to diinta unity than sext disunity) The reason I like him, is i am novice in learning jurisprudence, and the history of prophets, and sahabas which I must say is amazingly informative and interesting, I thank ALLAH SWT for introducing me to him. Anyway, thank you for recognizing that I don't adhere blindly. I go to Mufti videos to get Quran certifiable back up before I confirm it is true and verifiable. I WISH I could read Quran for myself.


Personally, I don't believe Wahabis and Salafism are a sect of Islam. I believe it is a sect of Politics. Period.


In that regard, I really don't pay attention to politics but the Quran verses and declarations.

[weydamal]

The diasporan Somali Muslim , qurba joog and the homeland Somali Muslim, qolqol joog, may live in different social, political and economic environments, but at the personal level, they face challenges that may drive them to a degenerate lifestyle or a pre or post degenerate lifestyle that drives them to seek salvation in Islam. He or she is often young, not well educated, economically and culturally derived, rootless, no skills in a competitive world, ex convict perhaps, overwhelmed by western liberal culture, tries hard to assimilate, loses identity, adopts the lowest culture possible and mimics , ape like, the lifestyles of the lowest dregs of society.

Then one day, he picks up a copy of a book by Bilal Phillips, or he watches Mufti Menk on youtube, or he stumbles upon a Salafi gathering. Suddenly he is born again. This is what he has been yearning for all his life, albeit unconsciously. Certainty, a clear guide , an unambiguous roadmap, a solution for all the contradictions and problems of his life. This certainty, reinforced by the Salafi group that he has now joined, gives him a sense of control and a feeling of superiority to all those who are outside this group, who have not been saved like him. Anyone who is outside his group is obviously wrong,mistaken and lost, and he becomes intolerant of them, for he belongs to an exclusive club, the firqatun naajiyah, the saved ones.

This insecure boy or man, with his new found creed, because parochial, narrow, intolerant, absolutist,discriminatory and exclusive. His creed is intense but soulless, learned but empty, well fed but lacking nourishment. Everything outside his creed is bidca, an innovation. Kullu bidcatin dalaala wa Kullu dalaalatin Fi naar. He has not read or ignores Imam Shafici, who recognises that there is good and bad bidca. He will use the latest technology but condemn the science and rationality that produced it.

He becomes intolerant of all other forms of islamic expression except for his primitive, literalist and intolerant creed. He wages war on his mother tongue and culture and worships the Arabic tongue. He rejects the orthodox madhab and scholars of old and derives his sharia, aqeedah from a literal understanding of the Quran and Hadith. He despises centuries of Muslim thought , scholarship and interpretation. His Islam is arid and petrified, stuck in the sands of time, imprisoned by a cult like mentality.

The result of the salvation of this man and thousands like him is not a flowering of Muslim civilisation, but division,militancy, conflict , humiliation failure.

,
To cut a long story short, everyone is a novice, a seeker. You can seek it the way the Somali described above seeks it or you can seek it with humility, respect, tolerance, compassion, maturity, self examination , intellect and piety.

The choice is yours.

[Typhoon]

allah commanded ibliss to bow down and iblis refused, why would you reinterpret or psychoanalyse the act of defiance of iblis
to say iblis was a good servant is taking iblis`s judgement over allah.
allah is very clear about iblis


Herr Eaglehawk, doesn't like pseudo arguments from peasants who regard every ceeb tom and harry intellectual claims as worthy of a audience.
as for somalis and trans-fare of knowledge its actually one of our Achilles heels, since we dont have written tradition and so sources become mythic

[weydamal]

Brother (or is it sister) typhoon,

You, like many Somalis, remind me of the typical African police man. When you go and report a crime in an African police station, you are promptly locked up as the first suspect.

I have said it here several times, this thread started when I saw a connection between a random Somali and the heretic al Hallaj. It was never about my position regarding the subject. These are not my thoughts. But like the typical Somali ( How aptly your name describes you) you storm in here and accuse me of saying this and that. Not very intellectual, I must say.


Besides this thread has drifted into other areas of Islam that may be of more interest to all of us than the esetoric ramblings of a medieval heretic.


You just saw the Iblis part, suddenly a vein burst in your head, and you had to come a stormin, dintcha.


,

[Basra-]

wey

lol indeed this thread has progressed into a better fruitful Islamic debate than your original quoting of s heretic lol

personally I find that Somali man who brought the in iblis defense seriously misguided. no matter what, no mortal is worst than in iblis . even the pathetic pharaoh heck abujahal is worst in my opinion at least than pharaohs who was ready to repent just when the sea was about to swallow him. abujahal when he was about to die he said don't injure my big head...cut below so people can see the size of my head. the arrogance is disgusting


in my opinion in iblis is the worst of Allah's set creation. All human sins n suffering is his work.....remember that o.o ya muminins

[WiredForGood]

Weydamal

As a kid growing up in Somalia, seeing sects with their own distinct rituals and their own set of sheikhs were common. My grandmother told me we were Qaddiriya sect, my neighbors who were biyamal and Abgaal were Salixiya sect and held yearly Dikri right in front of our home, Then the mosque we used to go for prayer was managed and owned by what we used to call Xerta(a group of young men who left their hometowns to become students of Islam). This Xer was Axmadiyah, their sheikh was Sheekh Hussein, nickname Husseen Cadde. I straddled between eating sandwiches with Qaddiriyah when they had their yearly celebrations and Xadro, and Played soccer with these young Xers who most of them were kids my age sent from their hometowns by their parents to study Islam. I watched the Salihiyah celebrations once a year since they were rarity in our area. My dad may Allah have mercy on him used to say "These Guys, Salihiyah have the best dance" during their Xadra sessions and he saw them in front of our house. To him, their choreography and movements that were executed with skill seemed sort of a dance. I don't blame him to this day. He made good observation.

Also, every Wednesday in our home, the Munaqib book, the book that extolls on the grandeur of Sheekh Abdulaqadir Jaylani used to be read and my grandmother made sure the sheelh was paid handsomely for his visit and blessing(supposedly on the house).

This is my Sufi background as a kid. I can recite some of the poems we used to read at the mosque on Friday evenings from the Munaqib even though back then I had no clue what we were saying in Arabic. We loved to recite them with the group and enjoy the feelings we got, plus the Cambuulo, tea, and the pleasure of doing something religious afterwards was toxic. My parents were average Somalis who actually did not even participate in those sufi rituals. They thought it was religious and good to do but they never practiced. I did participate because kids were doing it in the neighborhood and we loved the festivities surrounding these fun rituals. We thought it was Islamic(supported and encouraged by Islam).

That was the days of ignorance saxib. Opening a simple book of Islam based on the Quran and the authentic Sunnah of the prophet evaporated all those innovations and sectatrian teachings with no basis in Islam. I recall bringing home some soil from Maxfalka, a location in Shibis- Muqdisho to my mom so she could use that soil from the grave as a blessing.

If you are interested in getting into useful discussion about how these kind of sufi practices have nothing to do with Islam, you are welcome. Just on one condition, quote your sources and evidence from the Quran and Sunnah for your positions and set aside what someone other than the prophet said and the God who sent him. Also, it would be wise to drop insulting some Sheekh because you heard someone else insult them. Be your own man and use your own judgment. Don't repeat what you heard.

I have neither respect nor interest in someone else's opinion when it comes to ISLAM. mention ANY SHEEKH you want, If that sheikh says something contradictory to Islamic text, agreed upon issue by majority of Muslims, That sheikh to me is just wrong on that issue and I don't give a fuck about his status or whether he flew on wings. The beauty of Islam is the freedom of the Muslim person to make their own judgment about Islamic issues without loyalty to any group, and to any one person. In Islam, there is no obedience in what is disobedience to God. Really my kind of attitude since I love my freedom of thought, So, go ahead, be my guest.

[weydamal]

Wired,

Three quarters of your post talks about you growing up as a child and the Sufi practices you witnessed as a child. You close this with saying that those were the days of ignorance, and that a simple book cured you of this ignorance. Maybe another simple book will cure you again, because I think you have moved from one extreme to another. I talked about this phenomenon in my earlier post where someone .suddenly gets saved because he picked up a simple book or listened to a popular youtube sheekh. I also said that all of a sudden, centuries of Muslim scholarship, thought and interpretation mean nothing to him. He has the Quran and Hadith, and despite being a novice who has just emerged from ignorance, he now has the tools to interpret Islam and make fatawa. Sounds like your average Wahhabi to me.

I really don't beat my head over the different interpretations and expressions of Islam, that range from the kooky to the orthodox. All religions suffer from this phenomenon, because despite the fact that they have source materials or texts that are centuries old, all text is subject to interpretation by human beings, who understand and interpret these texts according to their understanding , their epoch,and the social, environmental and economic context.Not only that, these same humans also argue about the authenticity of these texts, what is genuine, what is fabricated. All this gives rise to different streams, sects, philosophies, thoughts, practices of a religion that can always be traced to the same founder.

Sufism to me therefore, is just but one of these streams that emerge from someone or some people's interpretation of Islam. Furthermore I know that human beings in terms of character tend to sway from the mystical to the material, and their worldview, including their deen ,will he colored by this. For sufism, the roots can be traced to the principle of zuhd or asceticism, which is found in all faiths , the desire to move away from material corruption that is so pervasive in the world to seclusion and devotion to God. These character traits are prevalent among all men and predate the established religions. Before the current or historical forms existed, the character traits of seclusion and devotion to God existed among the Companions and the righteous predecessors, and indeed in the character of the prophet himself.

In other words the tendency to Sufism or its opposite, has always existed in men and will continue to do so, as long as men exist on this earth and retain their innate human characteristics. Sufism has deep Islamic roots and is intrinsically linked to Islam. This however does not mean that Sufism has not been influenced or diluted by foreign elements and other over the passage of time, hence some of the bizarre thoughts and practices found therein. You yourself have mentioned some of the practices which are reprehensible. Nonetheless, Sufism represents the mystical dimension of Islam, and to say that Sufism has nothing to do with Islam is to lie to yourself.

Your last two paras remind me of the typical wahaabi response to debate, and I have no idea whether you are are wahaabi or influence by them, but this is a dead giveawaywhen you debate with them:

Asks for dalil or proof from a literal interpretation the Quran and Hadith, and ignore everything else.
Condemn all innovation as evil.
Belittle the fiqh of the four great madhabs of Islam and the orthodox Sunni scholars who have preceded us.
Believe that they have a better understanding of Islam than the scholars who preceded us.

What amazes me is that, an ex convict or hoodlum, a convert,a mechanic, an engineer or doctor, who for years has wallowed in ignorance, will suddenly pick up the quran and Hadith and profess to make judgements on Islamic issues. To qualify to be a doctor or engineer, a professor,you require years of study and practice, but to be a Muslim expert you just need to quote some quaran and some hadiths, without any reference to centuries of scholarship by Muslim scholars. Voila! Mufti Menk! Ibn Baz becomes more of an authority than Imam Shafici.


To understand you, wired, since you say that God has saved you from ignorance, please share with us what your position is with regard to the few following issues :

What madhab do you belong to? Or are madhabs bidca?
Does God have physical hands and feet and does he literally sit on a throne?
The Wahhabi shaykh al Uthaymin said, who will prohibit us from believing that Allah performs jogging(harwala). Do you believe that God jogs?
Should the prophet's grave in Medina be moved from the mosque?
Do you agree with Wahhabi shaykh al Fawzan that slavery is a part of Islam and has never been abolished. Do you support slavery from a religious point of view.
Is it permissible to make Takfir on a Muslim ie to declare a Muslim an infidel?

These really few issue can be adressed by you, surely since you are no longer ignorant, not beholden to any sheikh and can make your own independent judgement, and have the Quran and sunnah to rely on.


lastly please clean your mouth and stop using the f-word, like some ghetto thug , at least respect the discussion we are having on religion.

[WiredForGood]

Wired,

Three quarters of your post talks about you growing up as a child and the Sufi practices you witnessed as a child. You close this with saying that those were the days of ignorance, and that a simple book cured you of this ignorance. Maybe another simple book will cure you again, because I think you have moved from one extreme to another. I talked about this phenomenon in my earlier post where someone .suddenly gets saved because he picked up a simple book or listened to a popular youtube sheekh. I also said that all of a sudden, centuries of Muslim scholarship, thought and interpretation mean nothing to him. He has the Quran and Hadith, and despite being a novice who has just emerged from ignorance, he now has the tools to interpret Islam and make fatawa. Sounds like your average Wahhabi to me.

I really don't beat my head over the different interpretations and expressions of Islam, that range from the kooky to the orthodox. All religions suffer from this phenomenon, because despite the fact that they have source materials or texts that are centuries old, all text is subject to interpretation by human beings, who understand and interpret these texts according to their understanding , their epoch,and the social, environmental and economic context.Not only that, these same humans also argue about the authenticity of these texts, what is genuine, what is fabricated. All this gives rise to different streams, sects, philosophies, thoughts, practices of a religion that can always be traced to the same founder.

Sufism to me therefore, is just but one of these streams that emerge from someone or some people's interpretation of Islam. Furthermore I know that human beings in terms of character tend to sway from the mystical to the material, and their worldview, including their deen ,will he colored by this. For sufism, the roots can be traced to the principle of zuhd or asceticism, which is found in all faiths , the desire to move away from material corruption that is so pervasive in the world to seclusion and devotion to God. These character traits are prevalent among all men and predate the established religions. Before the current or historical forms existed, the character traits of seclusion and devotion to God existed among the Companions and the righteous predecessors, and indeed in the character of the prophet himself.

In other words the tendency to Sufism or its opposite, has always existed in men and will continue to do so, as long as men exist on this earth and retain their innate human characteristics. Sufism has deep Islamic roots and is intrinsically linked to Islam. This however does not mean that Sufism has not been influenced or diluted by foreign elements and other over the passage of time, hence some of the bizarre thoughts and practices found therein. You yourself have mentioned some of the practices which are reprehensible. Nonetheless, Sufism represents the mystical dimension of Islam, and to say that Sufism has nothing to do with Islam is to lie to yourself.

Your last two paras remind me of the typical wahaabi response to debate, and I have no idea whether you are are wahaabi or influence by them, but this is a dead giveawaywhen you debate with them:

Asks for dalil or proof from a literal interpretation the Quran and Hadith, and ignore everything else.
Condemn all innovation as evil.
Belittle the fiqh of the four great madhabs of Islam and the orthodox Sunni scholars who have preceded us.
Believe that they have a better understanding of Islam than the scholars who preceded us.

What amazes me is that, an ex convict or hoodlum, a convert,a mechanic, an engineer or doctor, who for years has wallowed in ignorance, will suddenly pick up the quran and Hadith and profess to make judgements on Islamic issues. To qualify to be a doctor or engineer, a professor,you require years of study and practice, but to be a Muslim expert you just need to quote some quaran and some hadiths, without any reference to centuries of scholarship by Muslim scholars. Voila! Mufti Menk! Ibn Baz becomes more of an authority than Imam Shafici.


To understand you, wired, since you say that God has saved you from ignorance, please share with us what your position is with regard to the few following issues :

What madhab do you belong to? Or are madhabs bidca?
Does God have physical hands and feet and does he literally sit on a throne?
The Wahhabi shaykh al Uthaymin said, who will prohibit us from believing that Allah performs jogging(harwala). Do you believe that God jogs?
Should the prophet's grave in Medina be moved from the mosque?
Do you agree with Wahhabi shaykh al Fawzan that slavery is a part of Islam and has never been abolished. Do you support slavery from a religious point of view.
Is it permissible to make Takfir on a Muslim ie to declare a Muslim an infidel?

These really few issue can be adressed by you, surely since you are no longer ignorant, not beholden to any sheikh and can make your own independent judgement, and have the Quran and sunnah to rely on.


lastly please clean your mouth and stop using the f-word, like some ghetto thug , at least respect the discussion we are having on religion.

Weydamal,

You are more likely to be a better Muslim than I am, so I would be the last person to question your faith. Don't take it personal when I pick on Sufism and their practice. I am not necessarily aiming at the individual but at the practice since we all share the religion of Islam. One can be a Muslim and do something wrong in their practice. As long as someone recognizes what they are doing as acts of worship are sanctioned by Islam, they are safe in the sense that if they were to answer to God, they have the right answer and followed what Allah told them to do to get close to him. This in essence is what Allah mentioned about Sufism in the Quran. They have exceeded the limits of their requirement in worship and invented ways that were far off from the mark of their religion. Doing what is required is enough in Islam, and all acts of worship belong to Allah alone, therefore, A- coming up with ideas and practices contrary to what is listed as acts of worship goes beyond the acceptable. B- If those acts of worship are aimed at being other than God, then it goes into the fold of polytheism. So, innovation in religion is wrong, and worshiping someone else alongside Allah is also wrong.


Your first Question:

- I don't belong to a particular Mad-hab as that is not a requirement in Islam. But if I need to see what a ruling on certain Islamic issue is in Jurisprudence, I would look up Shafi'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, or other positions taken by other schools/MAD-HABS and follow the consensus. I am not biased towards any of them but take what they agree on and sift through their disagreements then choose the opinion of the person among them who has the best textual evidence from Islamic sources. Some of the Imams learned from one another which exposes their emotional followers as silly. This is how every Muslim should approach the mad-habs when it comes to jurisprudence and avoid being partisan to the point where they fight over who is right and wrong. I am not attached to anyone when it comes to Islamic knowledge and I definitely don't care about anybody when it comes to what is right and wrong in ISLAM. I take what is right based on the proofs from the two sources of Islam. So any one scholar who got it right can be my source.

- When it comes to Allah's attributes(hands, face, etc)and names, I take the position of Ahlu-Sunnah in that the divine attributes are not similar to the non-divine but only share names. So, Muslim accepts the attributes in their literal as they are mentioned in the Quran. Hand of God does not equate to the Hand of a human as an example. Your problem is the fear that you are equating both(in case you accepted them literal) thus seeking to deny the attributes, or trying to change the meaning of the words to avoid appearing to equate the divine to the non-divine. It is not necessary and Muslims in their majority and in their consensus take the position of accepting these divine attributes as they are mentioned without thinking they are equal to the non-divine.

I will quote for you an Imam called Tabari addressing this issue:

"Imam Abu Ja‘far Muhammad ibn Jareer at-Tabari (d. 310 – may Allah have mercy on him) said:

If someone were to say: What is the proper approach with regard to the meaning of these attributes that you have mentioned, some of which are mentioned in the Book and revelation of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, and some were mentioned by the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)? Our response is: The correct approach in our view is to affirm the meaning in a real sense, without likening Him to His creation, as Allah said of Himself in the Qur’an (interpretation of the meaning): “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer” [ash-Shoora 42:11]. … So we affirm all of the meanings that we said are mentioned in the reports and the Qur’an and the revelation according to their apparent meaning, and we reject any likening of Him to His creation. Hence we say: He, may He be glorified and exalted, hears all sounds, but not through a hole in an ear or through any physical faculty like those of the sons of Adam. Similarly, He sees all people with vision that is not like the vision of the sons of Adam, which is a physical faculty of theirs. He has two hands, a right hand, and fingers, but not in a physical sense; rather His two hands are outstretched, bestowing blessings upon creation, not withholding good. And He has a countenance or face, but it is not like the physical faces of the sons of Adam that are made of flesh and blood. We say that He smiles upon whomever He will of His creation, but we do not say that this is showing teeth (like a human smile); and He descends every night to the lowest heaven.

End quote from Tabseer fi Ma‘aalim ad-Deen, p. 141-145 "

[WiredForGood]

And in case I did not stress enough, I have no sheekh I follow or one I am biased towards. To me, All Muslims are equal and when it comes to knowledge, I support the position of those who have the best evidence from Islamic sources. Ultimately, I will answer for my faith in front of God and saying I followed someone is beneath my dignity. If I burn in hell, I will be in there burning because I followed my own decisions.

Waan iskala waynahay saxib inaan iraahdo qof baan iska daba raacay sidii xoolihii.


I have been called Gaal by Salafi kids and Sufis Alike in the past I made the decision that I will use my brains saxib. Live alone, die alone kinda dude I am. Same with tribal issues, my own relatives questioned my loyalty as if disagreeing with every bs they sell along clan lines merits any dignity.

I am happy being myself all time.


PS: If YOU WOULD ALLOW ME the Occasional use of the "F-u-c-k" word, that would be great. I'm on a roll when I do that. The feeling is great. No offense. But if you are in your 50s, Okay, I will change my mind even with your permission brother.

[Basra-]

"What amazes me is that, an ex convict or hoodlum, a convert,a mechanic, an engineer or doctor, who for years has wallowed in ignorance, will suddenly pick up the quran and Hadith and profess to make judgements on Islamic issues. To qualify to be a doctor or engineer, a professor,you require years of study and practice, but to be a Muslim expert you just need to quote some quaran and some hadiths, without any reference to centuries of scholarship by Muslim scholars. Voila! Mufti Menk! Ibn Baz becomes more of an authority than Imam Shafici."

Wey,

It amazes me what a snob u r! I think u resent this idea of regular people gaining knowledge from free sources like YOUTUBE. I think u r from old school, where u respect schooling and hierarchy. Those days are gone. I am a proud YOUTUBE Mufti Disciples! YouTube Mufti has enabled me to debate with you about Islam by quoting Quran and backing up my arguments. U agree so far I am very knowledgeable, and that not even me knowing how to read Quran. My ignorance in Islam is Monstrous. But I am learning. I am humble. And I am thankful to Allaah swt !


Wey, maybe u need to practice humility!





Wired.....u sound like a lonely man in an island.

[WiredForGood]

"What amazes me is that, an ex convict or hoodlum, a convert,a mechanic, an engineer or doctor, who for years has wallowed in ignorance, will suddenly pick up the quran and Hadith and profess to make judgements on Islamic issues. To qualify to be a doctor or engineer, a professor,you require years of study and practice, but to be a Muslim expert you just need to quote some quaran and some hadiths, without any reference to centuries of scholarship by Muslim scholars. Voila! Mufti Menk! Ibn Baz becomes more of an authority than Imam Shafici."

Wey,

It amazes me what a snob u r! I think u resent this idea of regular people gaining knowledge from free sources like YOUTUBE. I think u r from old school, where u respect schooling and hierarchy. Those days are gone. I am a proud YOUTUBE Mufti Disciples! YouTube Mufti has enabled me to debate with you about Islam by quoting Quran and backing up my arguments. U agree so far I am very knowledgeable, and that not even me knowing how to read Quran. My ignorance in Islam is Monstrous. But I am learning. I am humble. And I am thankful to Allaah swt !


Wey, maybe u need to practice humility!





Wired.....u sound like a lonely man in an island.

Or I could be faking the lonesomeness and wish that was true so I can do as I please hahahahahahaha. You never know.

[weydamal]

Basra

My apologies if I came off as a snob. You are right, knowledge can be gained from any source, youtube included, and anyone can access knowledge from the wide resources availed to us by the wonderful internet. I too use these sources like everyone else.But the acquisition of knowledge, in any field, is an arduous task, there is nothing instant about it. Contextualising knowldge is also important .I was actually trying to point out the dangers of taking people who have limited knowledge as authoritative, and these instant sheikhs range from ex convict to engineers. Let me give you an example.

You see a Muslim sheikh praying in a local park. In the park there is also a statue of a man on a horse. Has the Muslim has commited shirk by bowing down in a park where incidentally there is a statue ? It depends on your interpretation. A Wahhabi literalist would accuse the sheikh of Shirk. If you contextualise it, it was time for prayer and the sheikh prayed in the park. He bowed down to God. The statue in the park has no meaning to him, he did not place it there, and certainly he doesn't worship it, because no Muslim worships a statue. How you interpret things depend on your knowledge and ideological learnings.

I too , am learning Basra, and I will strive to be humble , my sister.


Brother Wired

As I said earlier, Sufism is a tendency based on the human character. As long as human beings retain these characteristics of yearning for the mystical, renunciation of the material world, seclusion in worshiping God, neither you or me can end this tendency. It manifests itself in all other religion. This is the basis for monasticism in the Christian world. These tendencies are also rooted in the Islamic world, from the time of the prophet, there have always been individuals who have denounced materialism, secluded themselves in night prayer etc. The Prophet himself got his revelations from the caves of Hira, where he used to retire for religious meditation. Caliph Cumar and many ashaba were known for their poverty , ascetism and simple lifestyle of worship , almsgiving and prayer. This is what has inspired the Sufis.
The accretion of layers of other beliefs from Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Hellenism etc, have of course have of course diluted the Sufi essence and introduced practices that border on heresy and shirk. But these layers have also affected mainstream Sunni Islam. I have mentioned the strong influence of the Talmud in the hadith that are known as Israilliyat. The point is that no religion is immune from foreign accretions, and the impulse to go back to a simpler time, when the religion was considered more pure , is always strong, hence the periodic revival movements, noted of which is Salafist in our time. The only problem is who gets to define what was considered as pure Islam and proclaim themselves as firqatun naajiyah or the saved ones. Is it the Wahhabi or the Barelwi, the Sufi or the Salafi, the Sunni or the Shia.
As for the attributes of God, though you deny following any madhab, you seem to follow the anthropomorphism of the Hanbali, who play around with semantics like God has hands,but not like the hands we know. It's a literalist interpretation of God's attributes. It says in surat al-Shura, "There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Qur'an 42:11). These attributes are metaphorical and not literal. In the famous hadith that says God descends in the third quarter of the night to listen to the supplication of the supplicant, does this mean that God literally descends from the sky. You might as well believe in Jesus as god incarnate in the flesh if you believe this. In the sharh an na wali it is explained that most islamic theologians believe that descending is figurative and what is meant is that God's mercy descends and that this is a metaphor for God's concern for the ernest supplicant.

When Salafi say just follow the quran and sunnah, what do they mean by this slogan. We all follow the quran and sunnah. I have never seen a Muslim sect that says we don't follow the quran and sunnah. What we all differ on is the interpretation of these. If you can sacrifice your entire life to reach the level of a mujtahid imam, and can evaluate every primary text to deduce rulings, then be my guest. But for the vast majority of Muslims who toil in their different professions to earn a living God has given us a simple command :

 Ask those who recall, if you know not " (Qur'an 16:43), 

And who are we to ask? Again we are told:

If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter " (Qur'an 4:83), 

The Prophet and the shabab are not with us, we cannot run to them everytime we have a question to ask.

Madhabs are schools of fiqh or jurisprudence. This is just one part of Islam not its entirety. The four imams who established these schools were known for their scholarly excellence. They are authorities in fiqh and we turn to them for guidance in matters of jurisprudence They all derive their rulings from the quran and sunna.As a Muslim you are free to choose which madhab to follow. It's just a school of thought. For example when standing for prayer, all schools except Maliki fold their hands on their chest or below the navel, while Maliki don't, but just stand with their arms hanging on the sides. All these positions are justifiable, because the prophet used them at different occasions. We as Somalis are traditionally Shafi'i, so we fold our arms on the chest. These are matters of fiqh and these are legal issues, you choose the school you want to belong to. It doesn't make you less of a Muslim because their rulings are based on the quran and sunna. These are legal issues which have been interpreted by our scholars. An analogy is the Us supreme court , where some judges are liberal and some conservative in their interpretation of the law, but they all refer to the constitution. As a layman you can also interpret the constitution, the materials are available, but I doubt if you will be as authoritative as Scalia.

It's a mark of humility to realise that there are those who are more learned than you, and have invested time and resources to enhance their knowledge, and to say just go back to the quran and sunna, while sounding attractive, is really a call to ignore centuries of Islamic scholarship in pursuit of some idealised, pristine form of the faith. Let us all be humble as Basra says and learn from all sources possible, especially the authoritative ones .

And brother, expletives are not cool, they just make you sound like an insecure pimply faced teen, which I hope you are not.

[weydamal]

Basra,


The brother does sound like Robinson Crusoe.