Welcome to SomaliNet Forums, a friendly and gigantic Somali centric active community. Login to hide this block

You are currently viewing this page as a guest. By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics, ask questions, educate others, use the advanced search, subscribe to threads and access many, many other features. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join SomaliNet forums today! Please note that registered members with over 50 posts see no ads whatsoever! Are you new to SomaliNet? These forums with millions of posts are just one section of a much larger site. Just visit the front page and use the top links to explore deep into SomaliNet oasis, Somali singles, Somali business directory, Somali job bank and much more. Click here to login. If you need to reset your password, click here. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Islam, Capitalism and Free Trade

Daily chitchat.

Moderators: Moderators, Junior Moderators

Forum rules
This General Forum is for general discussions from daily chitchat to more serious discussions among Somalinet Forums members. Please do not use it as your Personal Message center (PM). If you want to contact a particular person or a group of people, please use the PM feature. If you want to contact the moderators, pls PM them. If you insist leaving a public message for the mods or other members, it will be deleted.
OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE
User avatar
avowedly-agnostic
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:17 am
Location: The heartland of Communism. Hail Trotsky!

Postby avowedly-agnostic » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:32 pm

Viking
[quote]
Capitalism is a mode of production while Socialism is a mode of distribution. [/quote]

I beg to differ. Socialism is not just a mode of distribution, but rather a combination of both modes of production & distribution. I fail to see how you came to that conclusion

[/quote]The problem with "grassroots" movements like socialism/communism is that they initially look out for the interest of the people but when it comes to the helm of power and runs the state, it changes its way and becomes very "state-conscious". They are forced to look out for the interest of the state instead of the people.[quote]

I'll respond later in depth, all I will say for the present moment is that the Russian communist revolution of 1917 shows that it is indeed feasible to see such a government take power again.

[/quote]You say that a socialist state would do away with Zakat (a form of tax that ensures the mode of distribution), where will the money to support the wefare state come from?[/quote]
That was actually a subtle jibe, but I stand by it anyhow. Although I have no objections to Zakah, I will show later on that in a Socialist society, there'll be no need to collect zakah.

User avatar
salafi_student
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:47 pm
Location: If you would only listen, I can educate you!

Postby salafi_student » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:22 pm

There have been a varies theoretical explanations of the core fundamental of capitalism and its effect on the average human being. Such as “Iron law of wages” by David Ricardo in defence of capitalism hence his greed (kaligiis cune) idea of maximising profit and aggregate of all social goods for his individual private enterprise. This was the beginning, plantation of the so called social classes where the poor (i.e. unfortunate, unrighteous, ill-mannered, hard-working morons) got even poorer and the rich stayed richer.

I think there are more to this story of capitalism in world scale as once Hitler gave a speech in more a less to the routs behind the capitalist idea in a mass gathering in Munich on 1929:

Where he said: “If men wish to live, then they are forced to kill others. The entire struggle is a conquest of the means of existence which in turn results in the elimination of others from these same sources of subsistence. As long as there are people on this earth, there will be nations against nations…….”.

This is the best meaning I could come up with capitalism…..

In spite of our Somalia’s constitutional HIIHAA we still face a growing devastating economical drainage as the interest of the unpaid debts for the past 16 years from the economical imperialist institution (IMF) surpass all expectations, went to the sky high as it were. So what are the difficulties facing our mother’s land; I stop it here! Don’t have time sorry!

Socialist can’t be the solution! I could write pages on this issue I don’t have time…maybe next time Insha Allah.

Islam is the Solution as the brother Viking said..
Last edited by salafi_student on Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
michael_ital
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 16191
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Taranna

Postby michael_ital » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:26 pm

[quote="avowedly-agnostic"]

I'll respond later in depth, all I will say for the present moment is that the Russian communist revolution of 1917 shows that it is indeed feasible to see such a government take power again.

[/quote]

You don't actually mean to insinuate that a blueprint used to formulate a Russian Communist government almost 100 years ago can be applied to today??

User avatar
gurey25
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 19342
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: you dont wana know, trust me.
Contact:

Postby gurey25 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:51 pm

In Islam the economy is based on 3 factors.

1.Private Property and Entrepenuership
2.Free trade
3.Stable interest free money
4.Public ownership of Public goods

This is why we cannot say its capitalist or socialist.

Private ownership of the means of production is not the cause of hoardnig,
and unfair accumulation of capital to the disenfranchisment of the majority.
This is where marxism goes wrong..the exploitation of labour does not come from private ownership of the means of production, but from the
structre of the Banking system and the Monetary system.

In my opinion Marxism is an unatainable Utopia and Marxs theories were based on the narrow interpretation of what was occuring in Europe during the birth of the Industrial Revolution and its afteraffects.

Class conciousness inevitably will lead to Sate conciousness, as the "State" controls all aspects of the economy.
This concentrates too much power to those who administer the State, and in the end Communism will be as oppressive as todays Capitalism.

Its rare meeting a marxist these days,
i hope you do not adhere rigidly to what you have read in Das Capital ,
one need to be more flexible , more pen minded.

Caydid
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:13 am
Location: Mogadisho

Postby Caydid » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:47 pm

Assalamu calaykum,
Viking, you are quite right in stating that capitalism is a mode of production while socialism is about distribution. But, in order to understand the two it is important to ask when were these terms used for the first time? and the differences between free enterprises and capitalism on the one hand and communism and socialism.

People confuse often about these differences: Socialism is not the same as communism ( a dream-society that has Marxism as a base- but not neccessarily marxist)- capitalism is not the same as free enterprise, the right of ownership etc that is advocated by islam.

Islam is a religion that combines both capitalism (modes of production of resources NOT at the hands of few individuals) with social distribution of resources.

Socialism and capitalism are not bad phenomena. What people had in europe was not capitalism but control of resources combined with slavery.


Islam was the first religion that to define how resources could be allocated including alms (zakat) which is a tax for social responsibilty.

Free trade is something else and has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. It is about borders which is a construction that came in the 14th century.

User avatar
Basra-
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 49034
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Somewhere far, far, far away from you forumers.

Postby Basra- » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:27 am

Caydiid---???? What are you now ?? Professor of economics??? Are you cute at least?? Laughing Laughing Laughing

User avatar
avowedly-agnostic
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:17 am
Location: The heartland of Communism. Hail Trotsky!

Postby avowedly-agnostic » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:25 am

[quote]Who among the administrating level is going to allow themselves to be represented by these councils ?? And who owns/controls those businesses that employ the working class??? Surely anyone who aspires to own/run a multi million$ corporation is NOT going to allow themselves to be dictated to by a Council[/quote]

A Socialist society according to Marx can only be built when workers collectively seize control of the means of production, and this can only happen after a workers' revolution since the Capitalists aren’t going to give up their grip on power. Following the revolution, all businesses, companies, & industries will be nationalised by the Socialist government. The workers of the respective companies & businesses will form committees or workers’ councils, and collectively manage the business themselves. This will do away with managers and bosses because the workers will collectively manage their own work places.

[quote] the only problem with them is that it's reps are easily intoxicated by the amount of power that comes with the position. And they become tempted by the opportunity of personal wealth that arises with it.[/quote]

the State and the economy should be managed by workers' councils composed of delegates elected at workplaces and recallable at any moment. As such, council communists oppose state-run "bureaucratic socialism. Council communism advocates "Socialism from below", that is to say, it rejects the notion of a "revolutionary party", since as you said a Socialist or communist revolution led by a single party will lead to a party dictatorship. I support a worker's democracy where workers through their delegates can exercise control over the state through a federation of workers' councils. This safeguards the revolution from becoming a single party dictatorship.

User avatar
avowedly-agnostic
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:17 am
Location: The heartland of Communism. Hail Trotsky!

Postby avowedly-agnostic » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:37 am

[quote]In my opinion Marxism is an unatainable Utopia and Marxs theories were based on the narrow interpretation of what was occuring in Europe during the birth of the Industrial Revolution and its afteraffects.[/quote]

Unattainable utopia? That’s what the Capitalists would like you to believe. They would like you to think that a Socialist revolution which creates a classless society & where no one group is economically elevated over the rest is impossible. Even Marx didn’t imagine that there would be a Communist revolution in Russia, he thought that such a revolution would occur in the more industrially developed Western Europe. But, the communist utopia which Marx envisioned occurred in Russia because the workers of that country decided that they’d had enough of Capitalism where the wealth was concentrated into the hands of the minority ruling class. By organizing themselves into democratic councils and committees, they throw off the handicapping chains of Capitalism which had impoverished them.

[quote]Its rare meeting a marxist these days[quote]

Marxists are a rare phenomena? Are you kidding me? You make us sound like a handful dying breed of leftists who are close to extinction. I don't know where it is you currently reside, but you're terribly mistaken if you think that Marxists are a dwindling minority. In England alone, there are tens of thousand of Marxists in our political party: the Socialist Workers Party. There is also another Marxist party who we differ in ideology, the Socialist Party whose members in London alone is some where in the region of a 1,000. The left (Communist/Socialist parties) in Europe, and in particular, Germany, France, and Portugal has made significant gains in recent elections.

Latin America is also in revolt. Revolt against what do I hear you cry? The workers of Latin America are revolting against the multinational corporations that have plundered and robbed the natural resources of that continent. Latin America is telling Capitalism where it can stick its neo-liberal policies of exploitation. Proof of this can be seen in the electoral gains made by the left such as the recent election of the left-wing President Eva Morales and his party, Movement for Socialism in Bolivia; the election of the Socialist Michelle Bachelet of Chile, the election of President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, not to mention President lula of Brazil, and many other countries in Latin America are seeing Marxist, leftist mass movements posing a real threat to the servile Capitalist establishment. The peoples of Latin America are demanding (and rightly so) a greater say in their economy.

As Karl Marx said "The proletarians of the world have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win...” In fact, in a recent poll done by the BBC (the main radio and television broadcasting corporation of the UK) Karl Marx was voted by voters as the most revered philosopher to have ever lived. And you say Marx’s ideas are outdated? I THINK NOT.

[url=http://www.marxist.com/announcements/karl-marx-bbc-vote140705.htm][/url]

User avatar
gurey25
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 19342
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: you dont wana know, trust me.
Contact:

Postby gurey25 » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:10 am

I respect Marx as an economic theorist and as a Historian,
I also sypathise with many of the goals, but i believe that many of the
ideas are based on the narrow interpretation of events in European history.


Its rare to meet Marxists and other lefties, due to the blanket put over them by capitalist controled mass media.


What i want to know is the mechanics of running an economy based on worker controlled and managed enterpriss..
How will the capital be raised and managed?

Did i hear you correctly when you said you were agaisnt the single part state model, and believed in workers democracy?
how will you avoid the inevitable concentration of power, and the formation of a beauracracy?

User avatar
salafi_student
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:47 pm
Location: If you would only listen, I can educate you!

Postby salafi_student » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:11 am

avowedly-agnostic

What in the world mad you maxsist - aren’t you Muslim/Somali?

Just surprised the way you put your argument in support of outdated man-made law. Give up!

User avatar
michael_ital
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 16191
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Taranna

Postby michael_ital » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:13 am

[quote="avowedly-agnostic"]

A Socialist society according to Marx can only be built when workers collectively seize control of the means of production, and this can only happen after a workers' revolution since the Capitalists aren’t going to give up their grip on power. Following the revolution, all businesses, companies, & industries will be nationalised by the Socialist government. The workers of the respective companies & businesses will form committees or workers’ councils, and collectively manage the business themselves. This will do away with managers and bosses because the workers will collectively manage their own work places.]

The majority of working class don't have the intelligence, ability or wherewithal to sezie and effectively create, control and run means of production. That's why there are classes of people. It's just an unarguable fact that everyone is NOT equal. There are your elite, and there are your working class. And lets face it, it's the upper classes and the elite that create the employment opportunities for the lower classes.


[the State and the economy should be managed by workers' councils composed of delegates elected at workplaces and recallable at any moment. As such, council communists oppose state-run "bureaucratic socialism. Council communism advocates "Socialism from below", that is to say, it rejects the notion of a "revolutionary party", since as you said a Socialist or communist revolution led by a single party will lead to a party dictatorship. I support a worker's democracy where workers through their delegates can exercise control over the state through a federation of workers' councils. This safeguards the revolution from becoming a single party dictatorship.[/quote]

Again, workers councils are ill equipped intellectually to manage a State and it's economy. The problem with Marxism and Socialism in general is that it starts with the premise that all are equal, when in fact we are not. That's why there are the Bill Gates' of the world, and then there are the rest. All men are NOT created equal.

User avatar
gurey25
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 19342
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: you dont wana know, trust me.
Contact:

Postby gurey25 » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:23 am

Mike dont be too quick to judge.

working class people , even the uneducated peasants are capable of looking after their affairs and they have dream and abilities of thier own.
One should not lool down on people.

but you are right in one sense, everybody is not equal even when there exists a level playing field, some will outperform others.

What we should strive for is to remove all obstacles to the betterment of
the people, we should strive for that level playing field.

simplicity-
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:01 am

Postby simplicity- » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:42 pm

Confused I'm confused

anyways i'll try again later.

Welcome back to the forums Viking

Caydid
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:13 am
Location: Mogadisho

Postby Caydid » Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:22 am

Basra- no I have a major in sociology- and I wrote a thesis on Marx.

Someone people just don't understand the difference between Marxism and socialism.

Capitalism vs communism is a subject of debate that has attracted scholars and politicians for the last 100 years.

Marx was an economist who objected to capitalist mode of production and proposed the value of labour in the capitalist production. His ideas were simple but groundbreaking; To produce a unit you need some kind of labour input that is not accounted for by the capitalist. These inputs creates a surplus value; the capitalist uses cheap labour to produce and sells his products to them. In order to fight this misfit a revolution was needed.

Marx's gained political backing when he published his manifesto in paris. Was embraced by Angels, Lenin (but there are studies that indicate that the ideas were already in circulation in Prossuia).

on the 19th of november 1917 Marx's idea became reality when Lenin led a revolution and the rest is history.

Stalin, Brechnev, Andropov, Siyad Barre, Mengiste , Casto and many more were inspired by Marx - but their actions would have turned marx into his grave.

The bottom line; Marx was a good economist, humanist and visioner.

Communism, scientific socialism is b-ullshit.

PH.D.
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1234
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:00 pm
Location: Mars

Postby PH.D. » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:46 pm

viking is baack, pop the cognac, get the paparazzi Laughing oh and get that Rolling Stone editor.


OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE

Hello, Has your question been answered on this page? We hope yes. If not, you can start a new thread and post your question(s). It is free to join. You can also search our over a million pages (just scroll up and use our site-wide search box) or browse the forums.

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General - General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nnjrewzas112 and 13 guests