Welcome to SomaliNet Forums, a friendly and gigantic Somali centric active community. Login to hide this block

You are currently viewing this page as a guest. By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics, ask questions, educate others, use the advanced search, subscribe to threads and access many, many other features. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join SomaliNet forums today! Please note that registered members with over 50 posts see no ads whatsoever! Are you new to SomaliNet? These forums with millions of posts are just one section of a much larger site. Just visit the front page and use the top links to explore deep into SomaliNet oasis, Somali singles, Somali business directory, Somali job bank and much more. Click here to login. If you need to reset your password, click here. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Islam, Capitalism and Free Trade

Daily chitchat.

Moderators: Moderators, Junior Moderators

Forum rules
This General Forum is for general discussions from daily chitchat to more serious discussions among Somalinet Forums members. Please do not use it as your Personal Message center (PM). If you want to contact a particular person or a group of people, please use the PM feature. If you want to contact the moderators, pls PM them. If you insist leaving a public message for the mods or other members, it will be deleted.
OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE
User avatar
dhuusa_deer
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 8152
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Canada

Postby dhuusa_deer » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:46 am

[quote="Viking"]dhuusa-dheer,
Another good read would be "The Age of Consent" By George Monbiott and "Rulers of the New World" by John Pilger. These three books would give you a very good insight in what capitalism, globalisation and IMF is all about. Good luck!

.[/quote]

Read the Age of Consent but not the other. The issue here is not lack of knowledge but valid arguement. Those of you decrying capatilism aren't providing alternative that WORKS AND are unfairly selective in your judgement of capitalism. For example you sight in income disparity, I ask you this: where in the world are income disparities absent? You also dismiss capitalism's achievements and how it enfranchised more ppl than other system. Two good examples India and China.

User avatar
dhuusa_deer
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 8152
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Canada

Postby dhuusa_deer » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:51 am

[quote="Caydid"] The problem is that progress in the muslim world is not reported. We are bombarded with bad things that happen in those countries.[/quote]

Why don't you be a sport and REPORT this untold miraclous economic system.

Viking
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Valhalla

Postby Viking » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:00 pm

dhuusa-dheer,
Capitalism according to the English lexicon means:

"an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"

I don't know whether you read my post but Islam encopmasses all this, therefore I am not against Capitalism as a system the way it is defined but by the way it is practised. Joseph Stiglitz is a Nobel Prize winner of economics in 2002 and wrote a very illuminating book called "Globalisation and its discontents". He was a serior economist at the World Bank and has more insight in the issue of "globalisation" than most people. He is very critical of the way affairs are run by the IMF and the US Treasury Dept in the past few decades. He is a major critic of "capitalism" in the form we see today (the same capitalism you hail blindly).

India and China have prospered and they will probably replace USA as a superpower in the coming 50 years or so. Ask yourself why "capitalism" has benefitted them, USA, GB, South Korea, Malaysia etc. and not most other countries on the globe.

These countries (incl China today) have put up a stable private sector before they openned up their markets. They also imposed tariffs on foreign goods until their markets were able to compete with others. I totally support this, but the IMF, WTO and US Treasury are forcing poor countries to open up their markets before they have a stable private sector. This was done to Russia, Tanzania, Kenya and most poor nations and look where they ended up! The Russian oil fields were acutionned off to oligarchs who have exploited the country and invested and their profits abroad. Putin has been trying to correct (albeit wrongfully) the mess that was created by the west after the end of the Cold War.

User avatar
Copy.&.Paste
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:02 pm
Location: Simply

Postby Copy.&.Paste » Thu May 04, 2006 10:37 pm

sdfgsdf

The rebel
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:46 pm
Location: And you are asking... Why?

Re: Islam, Capitalism and Free Trade

Postby The rebel » Fri May 05, 2006 5:32 am

[quote="Viking"]In Europe, the rise of individualism was seen as one of the products of the European Protestant revolution (around the beginning of the 16th century) which they deem led to the rise of capitalism. With the Protestant revolution, it was not necessary for Christians to make confessions or ask for intercessions from the priest; man was held accountable for his own actions.

Protestantism also changed the view Europeans had on wealth and the pursuit of it. Protestantism taught that one could acquire wealth without feeling any guilt and the sin of avarice was made morally respectable. Piety was no longer the barometer for success in Europe, but the amount of wealth one had was also seen as a hallmark for success. People were initially taught to make a lot of money but to spend as little as possible, but with time, this changed and people invested more especially as the Industrial Revolution (towards the end of the 18th century) got underway. With the apparent rise of capitalism, the Protestant movement became linked to the rise of modern science.

Where does Islam come into all of this? As most of Europe lived in what was referred to as the Dark Ages, science was flourishing in Islamic Spain where the works of the Greek philosophers were translated into Arabic and then [mostly] to Latin and German. Many European scholars traveled to Spain after they heard about this intellectual movement and learnt and took with them a lot of knowledge which was brought forth by the pioneering spirit of Muslims scholars working incorporation with Jewish and Christian scholars in what the Spanish call LA CONVIVENCIA (meaning The Co-existence). This preceded both the Protestant Reformation and Industrial Revolution, so why isn’t it acknowledged as the force that paved way for modern science? If Europe came to know of Aristotle and Plato through the Muslims, why isn’t this acknowledged world-wide?

Occidentals today constantly shove terms like “free-trade” down the throats of the rest of the world. They feel that capitalism has been good to them and would like to teach the rest of us (the “Third World” or the “Developing World” as they prefer to often call it). Most of us know that this “free-trade” they vehemently promote is on their terms and benefits them more than it does other parties, but that is a whole chapter, or book, if not volumes of books one needs to cover this topic and there is a lot written about it (both for and against it).

But what is the view of Islam on free-trade? Many argue that Islam is socialist because of the amount of control the state is awarded and its welfare system or it is capitalist because it encourages private ownership and free-trade. Was Islam the first “capitalistic” system (as it is commonly defined) or was the European Protestant revolution with its Protestant ethics the force that led to the rise of capitalism in the world (as westerners claim)? Is free-trade a concept that is new to us as Muslims? What did our Noble Prophet PBUH think about such trade?

As we all know that our Noble Prophet PBUH started off as a trader working for his wife Khadija RA with trade caravans that traveled to Syria among other places. As a Messenger of God, what was his role in trade and how did he view it and thought it should be regulated?

The Prophet Muhammad PBUH always sought to remold the corrupt and morally desperate merchant class of Arabia and confined them to certain moral boundaries. Islam regulated production and consumption, distribution and exchange. He was opposed to price controls, i.e. the setting of a maximum price on products which he deemed unfair to merchants. He believed in an economy in which money and commodities were free to interact without impediments or any sort of external influences. He trusted the forces of supply and demand and wanted them to be the only barometer for prices. He strongly prohibited hoarding which would adversely affect the supply and demand of commodities. He condemned speculation especially of food produce (the Jews often sabotaged Muslims) and the institution of AL-HISBA had the role of checking for foul play (see AL-HISBA FI AL-ISLAM by Ibn Taymiya). The role of the Hisba was [among others] to see to it that merchants were not overcharging for their products.

Al-Hisba is a moral and socio-economic institution that ensures morality and protects society from exploitation, fraud, bad workmanship etc. This is naturally based on the Islamic concept of ‘amr bilmacruuf wannahi anil munkar’. The Prophet PBUH also forbade merchants or others gaining an ‘unfair known advantage’, vis-à-vis RIBA.

Our Noble Prophet also told merchants to inform consumers about faults in their products, this was a hallmark of a truly honest businessman. This in turn issued consumer protection and ensured that there was fair play. The quality of the component being sold was supposed to determine its marketability and NOT the advertising done by the seller. As it is often today – big companies (i.e. Coca-Cola) that invest millions upon millions in advertising reap huge profits.

During the reign of Omar ibn Khattab, Islam spread further beyond Arabia with a larger population and greater prosperity and more opportunities. Slowly the high standards of economic justice that was set by our Noble Prophet declined and regressed as the empire expanded. The empire went forward in terms of ‘culture’, arts, scholarship and as a ‘civilization’. The empire later turned into a kingdom, then smaller and more decentralized fiefdoms. The standards of economic justice declined onwards with time and we can today witness a very fragmented, weakened and downtrodden Ummah that is divided along state lines.

We clearly see that Muhammad PBUH believed in free-trade, and the only way to conduct trade (as a Muslim) is to make sure that it is fair to both the seller and the consumer. Islam is neither right nor left on the political scale, it is neither socialist (despite the welfare state) nor capitalist (although it was the first system to apply capitalistic mentality in trade). The rules of the game are set by the state according to the teachings of Islam. Islam also incorporates both state and private ownership and since our faith is about submission to One True God and subordination to the Laws of the Almighty, secularism and all other -isms westerners shovedown our threats should not be an option for any Muslim indivudal, nation or [future] Islamic state.

The conclusion that we naturally ought to come to is that we urgently need to go BACK TO BASICS. I know we have heard this phrase many a times, but whenever this is said, westerners (and alas some Muslims) often see this as regressing, but we know it is definitely not the case. Islam champions justice, fair dealings and the seeking of knowledge, it is about time we really practiced our Deen in the manner our noble Prophet Muhammad PBUH wanted us to practise.[/quote]

Finally, something worth reading here.

Highland
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: The Beautiful ''Calmadow''

Postby Highland » Fri May 05, 2006 7:46 am

Educational

Steeler [Crawler2]
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 12405
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:00 pm

Postby Steeler [Crawler2] » Sun May 07, 2006 3:20 pm

Viking
You can never go back man. Islam and Muslims do not exist in a vacume. You know that. The real issue with free trade is it has to be free.

Also, while nobody will disagree with some of your sentiment on fairness, how one achieves that is somewhat trickier.


OUR SPONSOR: LOGIN TO HIDE

Hello, Has your question been answered on this page? We hope yes. If not, you can start a new thread and post your question(s). It is free to join. You can also search our over a million pages (just scroll up and use our site-wide search box) or browse the forums.

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General - General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nnjrewzas112 and 13 guests