Justice

[The rebel]

The other day we were having discussion about :
Where does justice come from? Does pure justice exist ?

As a muslims we belief justice but we disagreed where and how? So some argued that justice come from God and pure justice is only found on judgement day.

I'm assuming that the word justice is Greek so some old school philosophers came up with the idea -- where did they think it came from. But didn't humans have justice when they lived in tribes? When something wrong they were expelled from tribe, was this not a form of rough justice?

The thing is people who have legitimate force are the government or community leaders. So is justice defined by those with power. How does justice work for the weak? Is this what drives the weak to think that justice can only be found in God?

What I'm implying is that the source of justice predates monotheism and I'm wondering what other people think about this and where, if not from God, does justice come from?

I am just thinking out loud.... any ideas please

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="The rebel"] if not from God, does justice come from?[/quote]


From human empathy... all of 'em: morality, ethics, justice etc

[The rebel]

Mans justice can be corrupt. Well thanks for enlightening me with that but it doesn't really answer my question.

[dhuusa_deer]

Your question was WHERE does Justice come from, right? It comes from human empathy or self-interest. A fact that can easily be demonstrated by comparing DIFFERENT societies with their own different religions and cultures. What you'll find is any act the society considers UNJUST is physically harmfull to the individual, limits oppurtunities such making living, seeking justice etc. And anything deemed JUST are anything not regarded as a threat to life, oppurtunity, freedom, justice etc.

[avowedly-agnostic]

Justice comes from a feeling of mutual empathy, that is to say, recognition by people not to do to others what they wouldn't want to be done to them. Once people come to the realisation that there are certain manners of conduct, be it social, economic, or political, which is harmful and adverse to their well-being, they then establish common laws by which it is in everybody's interest to abide by.

There is usually a penalty resulting for failure to observe the laws that are agreed upon.

[Demure]

Justice is a concept that could have a very contradictory meanings in different societies and it could change colors over time depending on what century you're talking about.

I can only imagine it originated with people's need to retribute or rule and progressed to become an abstract that draws it's fundemental bedrock from religion and common society values, principals and Laws. Supposed to deliver a just treatment to all citizens at all times, but there's always those who are left out for being part of a disliked group or having certain unwanted charactaristics. Hence, Justice is very subjective in the broad sense, You can clearly grasp it's relativeness and objevtivity only if you happen to hold the strings of the scale of jusctice in your hands.

[QansaGabeyle]

The rebel, I know my question is not revelant to this topic but where are you from if you are not somali and what are you doing on a somali site?

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Demure"] Hence, Justice is very subjective in the broad sense, [quote]

Relative, not subjective.


But I don't understand what you mean by this:

"You can clearly grasp it's relativeness and objevtivity only if you happen to hold the strings of the scale of jusctice in your hands."

[Demure]

I mean if you are the Ruler, the Judge, the company who funds the Politicians..etc Anybody who has a say AND benefits from making any Laws.

Of course it's subjective.

[dhuusa_deer]

Demure,

Can you give me an example of SUBJECTIVE justice?

[Demure]

Sure can, A highway patroller in a rural town interstate stopping me for speeding which I was by like (5 miles) but the thing that makes this one stand out is he passed me first and glanced at me and based of how I looked decided to give me a ticket after all about ten miles down the road from where I was actually speeding. After I argued with him about it he threatened to arrest me and gave me a criminal ticket not civil for being 5 miles above speed limit. Which I later found 10 miles + is considered criminal in that state.

[dhuusa_deer]

But you BROKE the law knowing full well you CAN be ticketed. Nothing subjective about it, rather its determinative.

I initially asked you to give an example becuz justice is ABSOLUTE. You are either one end of it or the other. Guilty or innocent. Nothing subjective about being ticketed or sentenced to time in prison.

If for example a cop pulls you over for driving under or at speed limit, then you have a case of arbitary/subjective justice.

Justice/morality/ethics are relative across dissimilar socities... even within a country. For example speed limits, punishments for assorted crimes vary from state to state in US. That would be an example of relative justice.

[Demure]

I broke the Law but so did he by giving me a criminal ticket unwarrented. Which I couldn't dispute by the way because of no witnesses so the Officer's word over-riden mine.

If that isn't a subjective Justice don't know what is!

[The rebel]

Good stuff here. Demure, you made good point
I also belief, like DD that justice is absolute, just like truth is absolute. Otherwise things would down to personal opinion. As you know no two people could agree on things 100%. i'haven't made up my mind about the topic yet. I'm learning from you and will add my own searches.

QansaGabeyle, i am from ME and i am here because i like to learn from different people and different cultures. I enjoy reading people like Demure, Mowhawk, Law26,kamal35, gurey25, micheal_It and others i don't remember their nicks now.