Who is worst a Mushrik or an Atheist?

[1nemansquad]

in my opinion a Mushrik idol-worshipping pagan is worse then a athiest, at least an Athiest denies Allah (swt), there is still a potential of forgiveness at least but a person who associates a partner to the One God, that is Shirk, much more serious to me

what does the Sharia says about this? and what do you know about this subject according to the Quran?

[The Arabman]

The central message of Islam is the Oneness of Allah (Tawhid). Shirk (associating Allah with partners) is considered the gravest sin in Islam. Islam emphasizes to only rely on Allah, because He is the only One who can benefit or harm you.

Atheism is a recent doctrine that come into existence as a result of modernization, industrialization and dissatisfaction with Christianity (in the West). Most atheists are from the West.

I agree with you shirk is worse than atheism.

[SomaliLight]

"[quote'1nemansquad]a Mushrik idol-worshipping pagan is worse then a athiest,"[quote][/quote]

I think you are a little confused here, the athiest knowingly and intentionally denies God. but the pagan still worships God, even if he is looking for god in all the wrong places, the intention to believe is still there.

agian like in the law, the intention to disbelieve must exist. When Nietzche says "God is dead", he surely cannot be commiting less Shirk than the native who worships the sun out of ignorance. Satan's shirk is not equal to that of mankind whether they are pagans or christians or whatever. the difference is in the acknowledged and intention to disbelieve. An atheist challenges God and his ethics, but the pagan is clumsy misinformed believer who just needs direction.

Athiesism the highest form of Shirk.

[michael_ital]

^^^ Some good points, but I disagree with "but the pagan is clumsy misinformed believer who just needs direction." This isn't true, in my opinion. It 5he cases of the natives of which you spoke, yes. But what of the "learned" Westerners who subscribe to Satanism, Wicca, etc ?? Are they "clumsy and and misinformed", or are they truly comitting the worst form of Shirk, in the manner that the original poster suggested ?

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="SomaliLight"] Athiesism the highest form of Shirk.[/quote]

Haye, bal inow sheeg your Highness. Expound your erudition in Atheism.



Arabman: "The central message of Islam is the Oneness of Allah (Tawhid)."


Then why is it one can't be a muslim without believing in Mohammed? Allah alone is not enough, maxamed is needed to complete the double team supposedly to represent ONE.

[SomaliLight]

DD,

you must agree with me that Your atheism was intentional and not due to misinformatiion about God? is athiesm not challenging the work of God, that is the creation of man and his sloppy caretaking of the universe?

well explain to me dear why you dispute my claim?

[1nemansquad]

a little lengthy, but beneficial if you take the time to read


The kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. Shirk means devoting worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah.

Kufr may take the form of denying and rejecting, but the mushrik may also believe in Allaah. This is the difference between the mushrik and the kaafir.

Each word may also carry the meaning of the other, so the word kufr may be used in the sense of shirk, and the word shirk may be used in the sense of kufr.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr and shirk may carry the same meaning, which is disbelief in Allaah, may He be exalted, or they may be used separately, whereby shirk refers to the worship of idols and other created beings, whilst also acknowledging Allaah, as the kuffaar of Quraysh did, and kufr may have a more general meaning than shirk. End quote.

Sharh Saheeh Muslim. 2/71

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr is denial and concealment of the truth, such as one who denies that prayer is obligatory, or that zakaah is obligatory, or that fasting Ramadaan is obligatory, or that doing Hajj when one is able to is obligatory, or that honouring one's parents is obligatory, and so on, or one who denies that zina is haraam, or that drinking intoxicants is haraam, or that disobeying one’s parents is haraam, and so on.

Shirk is devoting acts of worship to something or someone other than Allaah, such as one who seeks the help of the dead, those who are absent, the jinn, idols, the stars, and so on, or who offers sacrifices to them, or makes vows to them. A kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allaah, any other ilaah (god), of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely, Al‑Kaafiroon (the disbelievers in Allaah and in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, pagans, idolaters) will not be successful”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:117]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa'idah 5:72]

And Allaah says in Soorat Faatir (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

14. If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything)”
[Faatir 35:13-14]

Their calling on anything other than Allaah is called shirk in this soorah, but in Soorat al-Mu’minoon it is called kufr.

Allaah says in Soorat al-Tawbah (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light (with which Muhammad has been sent — Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kaafiroon (disbelievers) hate (it).

33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it)”

[al-Tawbah 9:32-33]

Here Allaah calls the kuffaar kuffaar, and He calls them mushrikeen. This indicates that a kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir. There are many similar verses and ahaadeeth.

Another example is the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him). And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that differentiates us from them is prayer; whoever gives it up is a kaafir.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasaa’i and Ibn Maajah with a saheeh isnaad from Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him). And Allaah is the Source of strength. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 9/174, 175.

The Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) also said:

It is also shirk to worship only something other than Allaah. This is called shirk, and it is called kufr. Whoever turns away from Allaah altogether and devotes his worship to something other than Allaah, such as trees, rocks, idols, the jinn or some of the dead such as those whom they call awliya’ (“saints”), and worship them, pray to them or fast for them, and forget Allaah altogether, this is the worst form of kufr and shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. Similarly those who deny the existence of Allaah and say that there is no god, that life is only material, such as the communists and atheists, are the most disbelieving and misguided of people, and the worst in terms of shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. The point is that people who hold these and similar beliefs are all regarded as mushrikeen and kaafirs who disbelieve in Allaah. Some people, out of ignorance, mistakenly regard calling upon the dead and seeking their help as waseelah and think that it is permissible. This is a serious error, because this action is one of the worst forms of shirk and associating others with Allaah. Some ignorant people and mushrikeen call it waseelah, but it is the religion of the mushrikeen whom Allaah criticized and condemned. He sent the Messenger and revealed His Books to denounce it and warn against it. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/32, 33

Secondly:

The Jews and Christians are both kaafirs and mushrikeen. They are kaafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:30, 31]

Here they are described as mushrikeen. In Soorat al-Bayyinah they are described as kaafirs, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al‑Mushrikoon, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence”

[al-Bayyinah 98:1]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, refuting those who say that the word mushrikeen cannot be applied to the People of the Book:

It is most likely that the people of the Book are included among the mushrikeen, men and women alike, when this word is used in general terms. because the kuffaar are undoubtedly mushrikeen. Hence they are forbidden to enter al-Masjid al-Haraam, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe (in Allaah’s Oneness and in His Messenger Muhammad)! Verily, the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, and in the Message of Muhammad) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al‑Masjid Al-Haraam (at Makkah) after this year”

[al-Tawbah 9:28]

If the People of the Book did not come under the general heading of mushrikeen, then this verse would not apply to them, and Allaah would not have referred to the beliefs of the Jews and Christians in Soorat Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:31]

So they are all described as mushrikeen, because the Jews said that ‘Uzayr is the son of God and the Christians said that the Messiah is the son of God; and because they took their priests and rabbis as lords instead of Allaah. All of this is the worst form of shirk. And there are many similar verses. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/274

i shouldn't have even started this thread i could've just searched the answers my self with out asking it here!

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="SomaliLight"] well explain to me dear why you dispute my claim?[/quote]


Athiesm denies the existance of DEFINED monotheistic Gods like Allah/yahweh etc. It doesn't associate partners with strictly monotheistic God, which by definition is SHIRKING. Thus, athiesm can not concievably be labeled as shirking when it denies God all together.


Orthodox Islam is SHIRK! Allah + Mohammed = 1

[SomaliLight]

DD,


don't get me wrong am talking about shirk in terms of islamic view. So the pagan commits shirk, ie association of things with god. But the athiest denies God just as satan. His status is far beyond shirk ...wouldn't you agree?

[gurey25]

Athiesm deny god.
mushrikeen worship god but assign partners to allah.

thereby athiests are worse.

[michael_ital]

<<< still witing for 'Light to address my contention.

quote "what does the Sharia says about this? and what do you know about this subject according to the Quran?"

You're right. This is a difficult question to get a precise answer to from here. But you've been here long enough to know this. I believe Arabman and possibly Somalisizz may be the only ones able to give you any semblance of a credible answer in regards to Sharia. Also, maybe Viking. You'd probably get a better answer from Somalilife.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="SomaliLight"]DD,
His status is far beyond shirk ...wouldn't you agree?[/quote]


You said Atheism is HIGHEST form of shirk. To me that means you're assigning Shirk -- the association of God with partners -- to Atheism. Which is not only wrong but impossible as I already explained.

The question of wether an atheist is in a worst status vis-a-vis paganist in the eyes of Allah is different kettle of fish. I don't think Islam differentiates the 2 that much but I know one thing for sure and that is there is alot of talk about shirking in Islam, Judiasm and Christianity. Why the founders of these monotheistic faiths invested so much energy into scaring the shit out of their new followers about associating partners with God should be pretty obvious to any honest person.

[SomaliLight]

Mike,

intentional denial of God, his purpose and his authority is far more serious than a shirk or association with other Gods. But to answer your question, the devil worhsippers, witches and the likes are but followers and naturally just another shirk, because if the Devil exists than so does his creator the banisher, and disowner. The point is that the athiest denies God,and shirk is association of with other things. Clearly, there is a distinction here. But i always say God loves A challenges, and thus the atheists:lol:

[The Arabman]

"Then why is it one can't be a muslim without believing in Mohammed?"

Indeed, one can't be a Muslim without believing in Muhammad (PBUH). The first of the five pillars of Islam is the Shahadah, the declaration that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger. Just as the pillar of Salat requires a Muslim to perform 5 daily prayers, the pillar of Shahadah requires a Muslim belief in Muhammad (PBUH) as the messenger and prophet of Allah.

"Allah alone is not enough, maxamed is needed to complete the double team supposedly to represent ONE."

In order to grasp Islam, one has to become a Muslim. It's possible a non-Muslim would understand or comprehend the Shahada erroneously.

1nemansquad, jazakAllah for the lengthy beneficial explanation.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="The Arabman"] Indeed, one can't be a Muslim without believing Muhammad (PBUH). [quote]


Thank you! That's precisely my point. Believe in Allah is not sufficient to be a muslim, you also need Mohammed. WHich elavates Mohammed from the status of mere messanger to junior partner of Allah. In other words, the Shahada is pure SHIRK.




[quote]In order to grasp Islam, one has to become a Muslim. [quote]


You're saying Islam can't be externally vindicated? One must buy into it's selling pitch with its associated constricting dogmas... why so much coercion?

Consider the scenario where a person unreservedly embraces Islam but finds out lacking or false or whatever... what then?



[quote]It's possible a non-Muslim would understand or comprehend the Shahada erroneously.[/quote]

EVERYTHING is possible! You should talk in terms of probability not possibility.