SomaliNet Forums

Hi there MAD MAC, just wanted to continue with our discussion about what it's like to serve in the US Army along with all the politics that comes with it. That's of course if you don't mind- just thought you may want to speak publically rather than via PM.

you say "I think she (anti-war protester Cindy Sheehan) is well meaning, but not well informed. The fact is, and any unbiased observer can see this, that if we leave Iraq before some semblance of stable institutions can be put in place, Iraq descends into a full blown civil war. And it will be ugly in the extreme. Millions of dead. On top of that, the Islamic psychos will parlay any premature pull out into a propaganda victory."

But isn't it the case that the occupation is now in its third year and still the US army cannot crush the resistence? Donald Rumsfeld a while back said that breaking the resistence could take as long as a decade. So how long should the US stay in Iraq? How many more American lives must die before the commander in chief calls for troop withdrawal?

As regards civil war, the US can't do anything to stop it for they're too busy protecting themselves, so their presence is doing nothing to put a stop to it.

Finally, that Islamists will celebrate an American troop withdrawal as victory is surely not a reason to put our American and British boys in harm's way. Guerrilla entities are by their very nature difficult to defeat. 2,500 American lives so far have been slain and the resistence has grown stronger, isn't it time that George Bush heeded voices like Cindy Sheehan that say, bring our troops home now?

Did u sleep with him in the end? Happily ever after?

^^ Are u jealous?

"Hi there MAD MAC, just wanted to continue with our discussion about what it's like to serve in the US Army along with all the politics that comes with it. That's of course if you don't mind- just thought you may want to speak publically rather than via PM. "

No problem

"you say "I think she (anti-war protester Cindy Sheehan) is well meaning, but not well informed. The fact is, and any unbiased observer can see this, that if we leave Iraq before some semblance of stable institutions can be put in place, Iraq descends into a full blown civil war. And it will be ugly in the extreme. Millions of dead. On top of that, the Islamic psychos will parlay any premature pull out into a propaganda victory."

But isn't it the case that the occupation is now in its third year and still the US army cannot crush the resistence? Donald Rumsfeld a while back said that breaking the resistence could take as long as a decade. So how long should the US stay in Iraq? How many more American lives must die before the commander in chief calls for troop withdrawal? "

That's up to the commander in chief. That's not my call. I don't think it will be possible to "break the resistance" but I do think it will be possible to empower the Iraqis to self govern. And that needs to be the goal. And in not so many words, that is the stated goal by Bush himself. The fact is, if we leave now, there will be a very nasty civil war in Iraq and everyone can see that. Our presence, while annoying to Muslims, keeps a certain lid on the violence because militias have to be discreet in what they do and how they do it. We leave and it becomes a free for all.

"As regards civil war, the US can't do anything to stop it for they're too busy protecting themselves, so they're presence is doing nothing to put a stop to it. "

We stop it now. Our presence allows us to root our and kill insurgents and Al Qaeda members. It also prevents militias from massing. If they mass, they make a target which we can, and do, destroy.

"Finally, that Islamists will celebrate an American troop withdrawal as victory is surely not a reason to put our American and British boys in harm's way. Guerrilla entities are by their very nature difficult to defeat. 2,500 American lives so far have been slain and the resistence has grown stronger, isn't it time that George Bush heeded voices like Cindy Sheehan that say, bring our troops home now?"

Difficult is not the same as impossible. And we don't need to defeat them. We need to suppress them until the Iraqis themselves are capable of defeating them. If I were president, and I am not, I would not pull out yet. I would, however, entertain (and it is being entertained) the insurgent offer to cease attacks in return for a US guaranteed pullout in two years. That's a good negotiating start point and leaves me hopeful that a negotiated settlement that ensures some long term stability in Iraq is a possibility.

Therefore, no, I do not agree with Cindy Sheehan. But she has the right to her opinion. It's a free country.

Maria r u talkign to me?

Yap!.... Chubby girl, so whacha gonna do?

I don't suppose there is some possibility that we could keep this thread on topic for a little while?

Maria


I am going to slap u!

MM
Use the magic word "Please"


Foosto...Go ahead.

'The Magic word, hmmmmmmm, NOW! That's it. Thanks for reminding me.

NOPE! ...I'll stick around

Your central argument for continuing the occupation hinges on preventing a full scale civil war. But any observer who looks at one day's carnage in Iraq can't help, but think that the civil war has begun and is in full swing.

Just read this New York Times article on the bloodletting of a day in Iraq:

"The sudden surge in violence began Sunday morning when a group of Shiite gunmen appeared on the streets of a predominantly Sunni neighborhood in western Baghdad and began executing people. This vigilantism appeared to come as retribution for the bombing of a Shiite mosque the day before.

It was closely followed on Sunday by what seemed to be retributive car bomb attacks against another Shiite mosque.

Estimates of the number of killings in Baghdad on Sunday ranged from at least 30 to more than double that number. And at least 30 died in violence on Monday, officials said.

In Tuesday's most deadly attack, two pedestrians wearing vests made of explosives blew themselves up near a restaurant outside the walls of the Green Zone, within a few hundred yards of three busy entrances, Iraqi and American officials said. Soon after the initial blasts, a hidden bomb was detonated nearby, adding to the carnage, the American military said. Some Iraqi authorities said the third explosion was caused by a car bomb.

At least 15 Iraqi civilians and an Iraqi police officer were killed in the explosions, and 4 people were wounded, according to the American military command.

In an Internet posting, two prominent insurgent groups claimed responsibility for the attacks.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council in Iraq said it was behind the two suicide bombings, according to SITE Institute, which monitors jihadist postings on the Internet. The Islamic Army in Iraq claimed in a separate posting that it was responsible for the third explosion, which it said was a car bomb, according to a translation provided by SITE.

The claims raise the possibility of a coordinated strike by the two groups, though they do not have a history of working together and, moreover, are thought to be rivals.

The Islamic Army said it had struck in revenge for the rape and slaying of an Iraqi girl and the killing of three other family members in Mahmudiya. Five American soldiers, and a recently discharged soldier, have been implicated the case.

In a predominantly Sunni area of Dawra, a district in southern Baghdad, gunmen ambushed a bus carrying Shiite mourners from the holy city of Najaf, where they had buried a relative, government officials and family members said. The gunmen pulled 10 people from the bus and executed them, the Interior Ministry official said.

An hour earlier, in Taji, north of Baghdad, gunmen ambushed another bus, killing one person and wounding five, the official said.

Two mortar grenades hit a Shiite mosque in Dawra, killing 9 and wounding 11 civilians, the Interior Ministry official said.

In other violence, a family of five -- a father, mother, grown daughter and two teenage sons -- were found beheaded in a predominantly Sunni sector of Dawra, according to an official at Yarmouk Hospital, the main medical facility in western Baghdad. "

If this isn't all out civil war, what is?

I'll be back!

"Your central argument for continuing the occupation hinges on preventing a full scale civil war. But any observer who looks at one day's carnage in Iraq can't help, but think that the civil war has begun and is in full swing. "

This is NOTHING compared to what you would see if we pulled out. Look at what happened in Somalia in 92-93. Now, close your eyes, imagine three times the population size and a thousand times more weapons and ammunition (because Iraq has oil, which means it can qand has bought lots of weapons and ammunition and can buy more in the future). There would be ten thousand dead EVERY WEEK. In a year more than a million would die. It would make what is going on right now look like peace.

So trust me on this one. We can't pull pitch yet and you don't want us to.

MAD

I'm glad that you recognise civil war has begun. But surely you also recognise that America is going to have to eventually withdraw her troops. It's not a question of if, but rather when.

So the US has two choices before it: one, to stay and get further bogged down into a Vietnam style quagmire with no end in sight and lose scores of more soldiers; or two, set a withdrawal date to bring the troops home immediately (both American & British).

One can't of course say for certain what course Iraq will take once the departure of the occupying forces, but one must recognise that Iraqis will determind the outcome of their future. So let them be. Washington cannot (as has alreadly been illustrated in the last three years) control events on the ground. The US backed government is completely out of touch with reality and has no clue regarding what's happening outside of the heavily fortified Green Zone.

So the underlying question is: how long shall we wait before doing what we're destined to do i.e. pull out, and more importantly how many more lives?

It took the unnecessary deaths of 50,000 US soldiers in a war lasting 15 bloody years, and a wave of protests by Americans for the US to withdraw from Vietnam. How many lives until we do so from Iraq?

That's why it's imperative we wait not another moment to do what the majority of Britons, Iraqis and a steadily increasing number of Americans are calling for: to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW.