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I never said that, but religion is clear and there are some limits which can't be transgressed. There is not a thousand ways to get near to Allah, only one way and that's the sunna of Prophet (scws). Bidca is every thing in religion that wasn't there when Prophet (scws) died. A person who wants to do something his own way is not satisfied with the religion of Allah and the message and example of Muhammad (scws) and thinks he knows better. This is very serious issue and not a light one.

Salahuddin
For you, everything is about Islam, and Islam is always a serious issue.

As for the Sufis, they pay attention to something that the Wahabis neglect. The SPIRATUAL aspect of Islam. Wahabis go through the motions. They think doing to the physical is enough, and give lip service to the spiratual. They completely miss the point, is religion is about the spiratual, not the physical.

Islam is spiritual and physical. You can't take other away.

[quote="Salahuddiin"]I never said that, but religion is clear and there are some limits which can't be transgressed. There is not a thousand ways to get near to Allah, only one way and that's the sunna of Prophet (scws). Bidca is every thing in religion that wasn't there when Prophet (scws) died. A person who wants to do something his own way is not satisfied with the religion of Allah and the message and example of Muhammad (scws) and thinks he knows better. This is very serious issue and not a light one.[/quote]

^^^^^

every muslim sunni follows the koran and sunnah hadith and let us leave this argument here. as usual continue your rants against 96% of muslims are bida's. if your scholars sheikh albanee and sheikh mohamed abdiwahab promised you heaven and the right path, well done. let allah judge us the rest of muslims.

"every muslim sunni follows the koran and sunnah hadith and let us leave this argument here"

Not everyone. Many do lot of things without any evidence from Qur'an or Sunna. Following what "feels right" was never part of Islam if there isn't any basis.

^^^^^

what is the benefit of this discussion? to divide muslims and accuse the majority of muslims of shirk, bida' or whatever? will that make you happy? go ahead and insult the majority of muslims, that is a tradition and culture for new somali iqwaanis.

Reason why muslims are on the bottom is not people who warn others about bidca. The reason is those people who are doing it.

Salahudin
The reason why Muslims are on the bottom is because Islam as a social and political compact is inferior to western democracy. It can not compete. And, as I am sure you yourself would admit, you don't really want to compete. Your issue is with deen, not improving the lifestyle of this world, but of the next.

"Following what "feels right" was never part of Islam if there isn't any basis."

Ahhh, now isn't this interesting. Is it not God who tells you when something feels right or feels wrong? If something feels wrong, though there not be an Islamic reference to it, should you not be concerned that it feels wrong? Is it impossible for God to communicate with you? I thought God could do anything. If you are at a decision point, and your conscience is telling you what you are about to do is wrong, are you suppose to ignore it? This is what Islamic psychos, who find some twisted justification in the Qur'an or Hadith for acting like animals, do. They turn off their conscience (if they ever had one). They don't listen to God.

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Reason why muslims are on the bottom is not people who warn others about bidca. The reason is those people who are doing it.[/quote]

^^^^

could the reason be many muslims are sold to them the saudi wahabiyah or salafi tariqa. it didn't benefit the saudis and their own people and country. with all that wealth, they haven't produced scientists, imminent scholars except corruption, a brutal kingdom, laziness and sexism and suicide bombers. during islam's best era, when they conquered europe and many places, all the way to spain, they educated the muslims, enlightened the european masses, and gave protection and refugee status to many european and jewish refugees, those great muslims were not following the saudi school you follow. respect all muslims.

MAD MAC

[quote]you don't really want to compete. Your issue is with deen, not improving the lifestyle of this world, but of the next.
[/quote]

Didn't I just say that Islam is both spiritual and physical? Sufis think that nothing matters in this duniya and they don't wanna get involved in the society. I think of the opposite. Earning your own livelihood helping and strenghtening a muslim umma is a part of religion.

[quote]Is it not God who tells you when something feels right or feels wrong?[/quote]

I was talking only about matters related to religion, not outside of it. Islam is clear and no one has a right to make his own desires part of his religion.

musika man

Yep, Andalusia is a great example about the subject of this topic. Where are they now? They were killed or converted to christianity.

When Dajjaal comes his followers will live in success and luxury and they have everything they need. On the other side muslims are the poorest and they don't have anything to eat. Now is this an evidence that they who follow Dajjaal will be on a right path?

Musika
You are touching on the heart of the issue concerning political Islam. Some see a political Islam that allows a country to move forward like Malaysia has. Respecting all elements within the society, not focussed on the rules of Shari'a, but the intent of the faith. But others, like Lac, Salahudin and Lug, think that Islam is about rules. For them, the rules are the alpha and the Omega. They are not interested in intent. They prefer a world of black and white. Malaysia is not a model they can respect. They want the world to look like it did in the 10th century.

MAD MAC

Which part of shariica law prevents a state to have success?

Salahudin
It's not just the law, but the attitude of those who implement and support it.

Let me give you some examples. The internet. Some Islamists say that because the internet is global, and can not be controlled, it is haram for Muslims to use it. Now, of course, for their psychos who are using it to kill people, that's OK. Because they are using it for Jihad. But for your average guy, logging on to the net has too many temptations, and therefore it should not be done.

TV. In Iran today, a lot of Iranians have satellite dishes. These have been outlawed at the direction of the Mullahs (who, of course, have to have an Islamic justification for everything). Why? Ostensibly because you can watch porn on them. Which is haram. Of course, you can also see differing global opinions on political and religious issues, which they don't want their people to see. How convenient.

Education. A lot of Muslim scholars do not believe that women should be educated. They need to learn to read so they can read the Qur'an, but they don't need more than that. MANY Taliban have stated this.

Work. Many who support Shari'a don't think women should be allowed to work outside the home. The risk of fitnah is too great. You immeidately cut your work force by 50% when you make such an edict.

And, of course, there are many more. It's not just Shari'a, but how it's interpreted. The people who support the implementation of Shari'a are, of course, by definition, conservative in their outlook. Their interpretations of issues will also be conservative in their outlook, as you can see from the above examples. When in doubt, they will choose the conservative exmaple. This will almost always be more confining for human activity, and regarding new devlopments and new techonologies.

The more restrictive you make your society, the less productive it is. This is natures law, not mine. This is esspecially true in the modern world.

[quote="Salahuddiin"][quote] Nuh Ha Mim Keller is a respected scholar?

This is a man who called Ibn Arabi a great scholar in his books. Ibn Arabi was a man who was called a great kaafir by the culamaa of his times until this day.

Ibn Arabi wrote for example that Nabi Musa was wrong and his people were right when they made an idol to worship for themselves because Allah is in everything and also inside the statues so you can worship them. And believe me this is not even the sickest idea of Ibn Arabi.

Nuh Ha Mim Keller also praises one other sufi "scholar" called Shaarani.
There was some insane sufi guy who cut off his own penis to get into a mystical sufi state and Shaarani celebrated this man and this incident in his books. Shaarani also wrote that “a man would not attain the levels of the siddiqiin, until he leaves his wife as if she was a widow, his kids as if they were orphans, and takes refuge in dogs pens.”

There is something seriously wrong in this group of people...[/quote]

god forgive you for your lack of respect towards a sheikh who cant defend himself here. why dont you question him in his website? read sheikh nuh keller, he translated reliance of the traveler, a manual of shafi'i fiqh. like most somalis, he himself is shafi'i.

[qoute="Salahuddiin"] ="Salahuddiin"]musika man

Yep, Andalusia is a great example about the subject of this topic. Where are they now? They were killed or converted to christianity. [/quote]

andalusia is the last golden era of islamic rule and they were defeated by other muslims supported by their enemies. they spread islam to the furthest corners, and developed scientific, spiritual and educational achievements in all fields and became known as a muslim empire of knowledge, tolerance and wealth. many medieval europeans christians and jews found them as worthy just rulers rather than their own cruel and corrupted monarchs, what have the new saudi tariqa you follow achieved?

MAD MAC

All the problems you stated come from hearts of people, not from Islam. You admitted shariica law won't prevent success in the modern world, religion is perfect but people are not.

"The more restrictive you make your society, the less productive it is"

On the other side, more freedom you give you get problems like AIDS, drugs, crime, problems related to alcohol etc etc.

musika man

Find more about Ibn Arabi, go and google about him. This man is really in his own level, subhan Allah. He also said that Fircawn was right when he said to Musa that he is the lord, because Allah is everywhere and also inside Fircawn, acudhubillah. I don't know about you, but if a muslim comes to me and says that my sheikh is Nietzsche or pope John Paul, I don't care what he has to say after that.

Again I ask you, will the followers of Dajjaal be on right path because they will live in prosperity and success while muslims will be without food in misery the same time? You can't always measure the right path on success of the people. And still you can bet it wasn't the sufis who brought prosperity because from the start main idea of sufism is rejection of duniya.