Postby FAH1223 » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:14 pm
[quote="#1baller"][quote="FAH1223"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
You are right that I AM a genius. But that being said, i'll never purport to know how over 280 million people view a beautful religion.[/quote]
In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?
Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.[/quote]
I will prove Ayan wrong right here. Because Time and again, over and over and over again, I either read or hear from people that Islam calls for the murder of "infidels," or all those who are not Muslim. This perception is so pervasive, so entrenched, and I really do not know from where it comes. Yes, there are Muslims who do believe this: 19 of them crashed three planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 of my innocent American brothers and sisters. But, I don't know from where they got this idea. "It is the Qur'an, you idiot!!!" I am quite sure some of you just screamed that to your computer screen. Really? Where? I do not know of one verse which directs the believers to kill all "infidels." Yet, I am constantly reminded of the contrary, such as this verse:
"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).
Or this one:
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).
Or this one:
"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).
Yet, perhaps the "poster child" of all the verses in the Qur'an which are cited as evidence that Islam calls for the murder of infidels is this one, the so-called "Verse of the Sword":
"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).
Case closed? Wrong. These verses have a context, and when understood in their proper context, it will become quite clear that the verses cited above are not a carte blanche for Muslims to kill all non-Muslims...
...In the Qur'an, the principle of fighting is purely self-defensive. According to all available Traditions, the earliest verses revealed with regards to fighting are these:
"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them; those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our sustainer is God!'" (22:39-40).
Along with this verse is 2:190, which says:
"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you..."
Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is to be done in self-defense. Now, anyone can commit acts of terror and aggression and say, "it's in self-defense." In fact, that is precisely what Al Qaeda is doing: they claim by killing 3,000 people in New York City and Washington, D.C., they are "defending" the Muslim nation against "Zionist and Crusader" aggression against the Muslims. What sheer rubbish.
The Qur'an clearly states, in the remainder of 2:190 it says:
"...but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."
"Committing aggression" includes killing innocent civilians in Tel Aviv, Beslan, Mogadishu, New York, Baghdad, or wherever. Furthermore, when the enemy ceases its hostility, fighting must cease:
"...but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193).
Another verse repeats this insistence that hostility must cease when the enemy stops its aggression against you:
"But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).
Thus, even if the enemy is feigning a peaceful posture, the Muslims are still commanded to cease hostility and "place their trust in God." Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is in self-defense, and aggression is not allowed. Now, Muslims have waged wars of aggression in the past, for sure, and they even called them "jihad against the infidels" in order to justify their desire for territorial expansion. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples of this was the Ummayad Dynasty, which enacted a policy of "jihad" as perpetual warfare. But, such a policy is not Islamically correct, and as the collapse of the Ummayad Dynasty showed, not sustainable.
Are there Muslims, however, who believe that non-Muslims are "worse than trash"? Are there Muslims who cite verse 9:5 and others similar to it as justification of their acts of murder and terror? Are there Muslims who think killing innocent Westerners is "self-defense" and therefore sanctioned by Islam? Yes, yes, and yes. Does that mean that what they do is Islamic? NO! NO! NO! NO! These Muslims defame Islam, defy both the letter and spirit of its law, and are an ugly aberration of the true way of the faith. Their sins - and horrific sins they are - can never be confused for the doctrines of Islam. Islam does not call for the murder of "infidels." Now, I am frequently confronted by people who tell me, "But, Ayaan so-and-so says all non-Muslims are to be killed..." or "Shaykh such-and-such says that you must hate all non-Muslims..." or "Maulana whatchamacallhim said that jihad is 'holy war' against the West..." Frankly, I could care less about what Ayaan so-and-so, or Shaykh such-and-such, or Maulana whatchamacallhim says. Their words are meaningless to me. I know what God says: I am not supposed to "kill all the infidels." It just can not be any clearer than that.[/quote]
Nice excerpt, but realistically explain something for me. Why would the qur'an a holy book by nature have words or verses discussing the justification of violence and then ask it's followers to interpret the doctrine in a different way???. Isn't that a bit confusing??[/quote]
The Pagans in Arabia wanted the Prophet dead, to hell with, and just gone forever. They plotted against him, backstabbed him, and were really trying to kill him.
Thats the reason they had to fight... cause if they didn't they would have been wiped off.
The Prophet (saw) could of easily killed and massacred all the non-Muslims in Mecca when he returned... but he didn't.
(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.) (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)
Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terroristâ€. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism†but they are a warning against the “terrorists.†But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)
“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
