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The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Dadka ku dhaqan ama ka imaaday gobolkan

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Adali
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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Adali » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:19 am

Wow, the true langaabs have hijacked this thread.

To the Dir forumers, maybe this sub tribe of Mandaluug perished in Ahmed Gurey or Harari wars, were they mentioned in Futuh al Habesh?
The only clans mentioned in Futuh are Marehan, Girhi, Habar Makadur, Dir. At that time they would have been under the Dir umbrella.
What about the Isaaq and the Majerten, these two pompous clans have been acclaiming to be the royalty of Somali people for decades since the civil war, I was always weary of them but could not deny their achievements in recent years even at the expense of my own pride. Please tell me they were mentioned I will feel like such a fool if there is no more depth to their history beyond European negro brothel destinations.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Ben Dover » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:33 am

Wow, the true langaabs have hijacked this thread.

To the Dir forumers, maybe this sub tribe of Mandaluug perished in Ahmed Gurey or Harari wars, were they mentioned in Futuh al Habesh?
The only clans mentioned in Futuh are Marehan, Girhi, Habar Makadur, Dir. At that time they would have been under the Dir umbrella.
What about the Isaaq and the Majerten, these two pompous clans have been acclaiming to be the royalty of Somali people for decades since the civil war, I was always weary of them but could not deny their achievements in recent years even at the expense of my own pride. Please tell me they were mentioned I will feel like such a fool if there is no more depth to their history beyond European negro brothel destinations.
Funny you ask, both were mentioned (Habar Magaadle for Isaaq and Harti for MJ).

In fact Habar Magaadle was a leading force in the wars, their leader was the Ahmed Gurey (he was Somali Isaaq, not to be confused with Imam Ahmad Al Gazi).

There was no mention of Habar Makador or Dir that I am aware of, though I have seen a Habar Maqdi, those were bandits who refused to pay Zakat and were punished by Al Gazi, some of the translations from the original Arabic hypothesis Habar Maqdi = Habar Makadour. The link is strenuous at best.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Adali » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:57 am

Wtf is Habr Magaadle some kind of clan federation ? I am not sure why you have a different name every other century, these days you are merely known as somaleen"aka landers"

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Ben Dover » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:13 am

Actually Somaliland was mentioned in Futuh Al Habash, check page 77 :)

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Thanato » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:39 am


There was no mention of Habar Makador or Dir that I am aware of, though I have seen a Habar Maqdi, those were bandits who refused to pay Zakat and were punished by Al Gazi, some of the translations from the original Arabic hypothesis Habar Maqdi = Habar Makadour. The link is strenuous at best.
You clearly haven't read the commentaries on the Futuh, I'm sure of that. Otherwise you wouldn't have made those comments. Most historians mention the Dir as being the most active participants. The Dir clans participation is without doubt the most verified. Unless, you wish to use as your only source, an Arabic script, which when you transliterate, it can go different ways. Your friend Ramzy disputed the Harti account based on one letter. Now I don't know if that was due to his own prejudice or something else. Either way, the best way to go are those who analyse beyond the Arabic lexicons. How many Isaaq are called Habar Magaadle today? And i've read some of the Arabic manuscripts of Futuh, I did'nt tell you before but some are spelt in different ways.
In regards to Habr Makadi, according to I.M Lewis (whom you yourself quote many times), they are Habr Makadur.
If you find another clan who live near the Geri who have the name called habr Makadi, other than Habr Makadur, let me know in all sincerity.

As for the Dir, then nobody could deny their No.1 role.

Image
Musa Cabdallah, Makadur, Samaroon

Image

Image

Image
^^Gurgurah Dir, mentioned. Futuh, page 123.

Also, in this version, it spells it correctly:
Among the Somali tribes there was another called Habr Makador, from which the Imam had demanded the alms tax. They refused to pay it, escorting to banditry on the roads and actomg evilly towards his country.
Futuh al Habasha, Shihab ad Din Ahmad ibn Abdel Qadir, (16th century) page 27.

You have to realise Arabic is a foreign language in the Horn. Whenever your translating you will corrupt the words, imagine transliteration into English, it will come out worse. These are examples of Hebrew turned Arabic then Latinised.
Gabriel = Jibril
Michael = Mikaaiil
Joshua = Yusha'
Joseph = Yusuf
Peter = Boutros

The only clan that lives near the Geri that fits the description is Habr Makadur. Nobody else.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby theyuusuf143 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:44 am

Dir brothers should respect each an other, what is wrong with you guys. Thanato keep the good job. Don't be intimidated by few delusional quraysh wannabes isaaq members. Your history is our history. Your people is our people. We will bring them all together by any means.

To awrastaale and mahoka keep your mouth shut while we are assembling the mighty dir empire.

To RoobleAlWaliid and jabuutaawi hankiinu ha sareeyo, don't behave like like chickens when some isaaqs insult you. Whoever controls his temper is better than a warrior. Every morning I see people insulting habarjeclo on social media it only makes me know that we are relevant if not important figures . Try to not go crazy when some says qudhun biirsay or hyenas to you.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Ben Dover » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:59 am

You clearly haven't read the commentaries on the Futuh, I'm sure of that. Otherwise you wouldn't have made those comments.
I thought you said you were fluent in Arabic, did you actually read the Arabic text?

There is no mention of Dir, you will find Dir mentioned in other works commenting on Futuh, but as far as I am aware Dir itself as a standalone clan was never mentioned. I did not deny the participation of Dir subclans, you can read my other posts on this, but my response was to the objection on the use of Habar Magaadle to denote those Isaaq subclans, Dir too was never used and instead names of subclans were mentioned.

I might be mistaken with Harti, Ramzy would know about this but I seem to remember seeing Harti there.
How many Isaaq are called Habar Magaadle today?
HA, GX, Arab, Ayoub are together called Habar Magaadle.

With regards to Habar Maqdi and Makadour, I have not disputed that, just clarified their context being bandits and their refusal to pay Zakat. I do not see why you are so eager to embrace them. Other Dir may not want to claim them so we must clarify it was Maqdi and not Makadour that was mentioned. The jump from Maqdi to Makadour was made in translation.

Also if Habar Makadur lives near Geri today it would not follow that they lived there at the time of Futuh.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Adali » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:06 am

Actually Somaliland was mentioned in Futuh Al Habash, check page 77 :)
wee duushay somalilaaaaan :lol:

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby zumaale » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:10 am

BenDover and Thanato

In regard to the Habar Maqdi/Habar Magadle debate, none of you are quoting the primary historical document written by Shihab Al Din.

The oldest book that currently in circulation that comments on Futuh Al Habash is the An Arabic History of Gujarat which was published at the start of 17th century century and a modern edition was reprinted in the 20th century . This book only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/arabichistoryofg00ulug

Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published in Egypt is not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812.

In 1881, General Charles George Gordon got hold of an orginal manuscript and donated it to the British Museum. This mansucript was edited by Strong and is available on the Archives website. This book also only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/futalabashahorc00argoog

No one on Somalinet can comment with authority on the the Historiography of Futuh Al Habash because no one has access to the original manuscript. All of you are running around with edited copies. All that can be summarised from these edited Arabic copies is that Habar Maqdi is listed as the clan of Ahmed Gurey in two of them whilst the Egyptian one lists Habar Magadle as his clan.

If any of you are able to access the original manuscript in London feel free, till then do not fu.ck with History please for the sake of FKD.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby TopMon » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:23 am

^We know Surre and other Dor langaabs did not participate in this war.

These dirs claim Habar Awal lands and now claim Gx as some long lost clan of there langaab confederation.Y'all need to get off our Magaadle ceeb

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Ben Dover » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:39 am

Zumaale,

What are you talking about?

The copy of An Arabic History of Gujarat was published in 1910!

Ramzy's manuscript is the oldest copy we have access to. And unlike the modern editions you are presenting it is not marred by the editors' own prejudices/thoughts, it is a copy of the original text as-is, by a non-expert. This is remarkable because where others attempted to conform the text they have received to clans they know of (Magaalde, Maqdi, Makadour), the Ramzy copy makes a clear distinction between Magaadle (a tribe that fought with the Imam, it is written exactly as you would write Magaadle) and Maqdi (bandits that some authors believe might be Makadour, but the transliteration fails here). It would be an incredible feat for whoever was tasked with copying the manuscript to write Magaadle instead of Maqdi without prior knowledge of minutia of Somali subclans.

The closest thing we have to the original manuscript is the Ramzy copy, and it is very clear in its phrasing of Magaadle.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby zumaale » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:06 pm

Zumaale,

What are you talking about?

The copy of An Arabic History of Gujarat was published in 1910!

Ramzy's manuscript is the oldest copy we have access to. And unlike the modern editions you are presenting it is not marred by the editors' own prejudices/thoughts, it is a copy of the original text as-is, by a non-expert. This is remarkable because where others attempted to conform the text they have received to clans they know of (Magaalde, Maqdi, Makadour), the Ramzy copy makes a clear distinction between Magaadle (a tribe that fought with the Imam, it is written exactly as you would write Magaadle) and Maqdi (bandits that some authors believe might be Makadour, but the transliteration fails here). It would be an incredible feat for whoever was tasked with copying the manuscript to write Magaadle instead of Maqdi without prior knowledge of minutia of Somali subclans.

The closest thing we have to the original manuscript is the Ramzy copy, and it is very clear in its phrasing of Magaadle.
The Arabic History of Gujarat in its original form was first created at the start of the 17th century and the edited print in circulation was published in the 20th century. It is the earliest edited book that references Futuh Al Habash.

Ramzy's is not the most authoritative copy available as it is not even one of the original manuscripts. Does not make a damn bit of difference if he wrote in 1812 because it is an edited version of the original with added notes by the author. Hence, one cannot run around claiming Mohamed Ibrahim's version to be the original copy when it fuc.king clearly ain't. It would not be considered as a reliable primary historical source in academia. Any scholar looking to research Futuh Al Habash would seek out one of the original manuscripts.

Like I said before, the truth is out there. Seek the original copy that was hosted by the British Museum and see for yourself what is written there. Till then hold your peace.
Last edited by zumaale on Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Thanato » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:07 pm

Dir brothers should respect each an other, what is wrong with you guys. Thanato keep the good job. Don't be intimidated by few delusional quraysh wannabes isaaq members. Your history is our history. Your people is our people. We will bring them all together by any means.

To awrastaale and mahoka keep your mouth shut while we are assembling the mighty dir empire.

To RoobleAlWaliid and jabuutaawi hankiinu ha sareeyo, don't behave like like chickens when some isaaqs insult you. Whoever controls his temper is better than a warrior. Every morning I see people insulting habarjeclo on social media it only makes me know that we are relevant if not important figures . Try to not go crazy when some says qudhun biirsay or hyenas to you.
I've made a conscious decision to not throw anymore attacks on anyone.

I was guilty myself tbh

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby TopMon » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:17 pm

Image

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Re: The tragedy of Mandaluug Dir and their dispersion

Postby Thanato » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:31 pm

BenDover and Thanato

In regard to the Habar Maqdi/Habar Magadle debate, none of you are quoting the primary historical document written by Shihab Al Din.

The oldest book that currently in circulation that comments on Futuh Al Habash is the An Arabic History of Gujarat which was published at the start of 17th century century and a modern edition was reprinted in the 20th century . This book only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/arabichistoryofg00ulug

Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published in Egypt is not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812.

In 1881, General Charles George Gordon got hold of an orginal manuscript and donated it to the British Museum. This mansucript was edited by Strong and is available on the Archives website. This book also only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/futalabashahorc00argoog

No one on Somalinet can comment with authority on the the Historiography of Futuh Al Habash because no one has access to the original manuscript. All of you are running around with edited copies. All that can be summarised from these edited Arabic copies is that Habar Maqdi is listed as the clan of Ahmed Gurey in two of them whilst the Egyptian one lists Habar Magadle as his clan.

If any of you are able to access the original manuscript in London feel free, till then do not fu.ck with History please for the sake of FKD.
Zumaale, the only issue is, Ben Dover and Ramzy before him and others are saying that Habar Magaadle and Habr Maqdi are two different clans, according to Ramzy's manuscript.

My question is, are they the same or are they two different groups. It would be good to know and research that.


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