THERE IS NO CONVINCING ARGUMENT FOR SOMALLAND INDEPENDENCE

[Xildiiid]

Pat on the back from the blue flag waving, Soomaaliyeey toosoo singing ''nationalists'' that roam this forum. The ones who preach Somalinimo but practice traitornimo. Kuwa sida yaxaaska iskaga oohiya as Faysal Cali Waraabe would put it.

What are your real intentions though? If ethno nationalism was the central tenet of your premises you wouldn't ignore the elephant in the room and that is the fact that there was no legal union between Somaliland and Somalia.

Somaliland was annexed by Somalia and the struggle to liberate Somaliland in order to regain her sovereignty started in 1961.

[Jugjugwacwac]

My real intentions are to find a way for Somalis to regain their independence, pride and dignity. This means a new reality in which Ethiopia, Kenya or any other foreigners will be unable to dictate their terms to us and play around with our sovereignty. If you think Somaliland isn't dictated to by Ethiopia waad huruddaa saaxiib. No Somali region in the horn is truly sovereign. My other goal is for Somalis regions to develop economically so Somali youth won't have to risk their lives in the dessert and the high seas just for a shot at a dignified life.

So for me unity is just a means to an end. If we can achieve the above goals without uniting then I'm up for it. Independent brotherly Somali states, with mutual defence pacts and extensive economic and social integration works fine with me if this is possible. I just support unity because I believe it's the quickest and easiest way to achieve these goals.

[26June1960]

I think the ultimate reality comes down to three options:

1) International Community respects and strengths Somalia's territorial integrity and reject any secession from any Somali clan, therefore giving any Somali government the green light to squash and decimate any group/clan that's threatening Somalia's territorial unity. Win-Lose situation (Somalis winners, Isaaq losers)

2) International Community forcing the so-called "Federal Government" to accept and recognize Somaliland. Furthermore, the International Community will have to force the Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli to surrender to what's known as "Somaliland" and accept to be part of the newly recognized State of Somaliland. Win-Lose situation (Isaaq winners, the rest of the Somalis losers)

3) International Community and the Somali people together accept and recognize the Isaaq clan as a sovereign nation known as Somaliland, of course without Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli and in return Isaaq would have to accept and recognize that Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli are not and will not be part of what they call "Somaliland". Win-Win situation. (Everyone is satisfied)

It boils down to these three options.

[Xildiiid]

Jugjug,

I never said Somaliland wasn't dictated to by the West through its proxy Ethiopia. Wax qarsoonba maaha.

Anigu sidaan qabo, ukuntaada meel luguma wada rido sxb. Unity, under a single state, means waanu isla wada burbureynaa and the effect will be much worse. Imagine if the civil war broke out in 1991 in a Somali republic made up by the 5 Somali states represented in the blue flag. It would be catastrophic. The end of our existence.

No one loves to see hablo curdin ah ama caruur yaryar oo ciidamo shisheeye ah ay kufsanayaan ama oday waayeel ah oo la jidh dilayo ama hooyooyin gaajo iyo cudur u bakhtiyeya.

We all love to see Somalis dignified but Somalis can only get out of this situation with visionary leaders similar to Afwerki in Eritrea and not trough fake unity.

[Xildiiid]

I think the ultimate reality comes down to three options:

1) International Community respects and strengths Somalia's territorial integrity and reject any secession from any Somali clan, therefore giving any Somali government the green light to squash and decimate any group/clan that's threatening Somalia's territorial unity. Win-Lose situation (Somalis winners, Isaaq losers)

2) International Community forcing the so-called "Federal Government" to accept and recognize Somaliland. Furthermore, the International Community will have to force the Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli to surrender to what's known as "Somaliland" and accept to be part of the newly recognized State of Somaliland. Win-Lose situation (Isaaq winners, the rest of the Somalis losers)

3) International Community and the Somali people together accept and recognize the Isaaq clan as a sovereign nation known as Somaliland, of course without Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli and in return Isaaq would have to accept and recognize that Dhulbahante, Gadabursi and Warsangeli are not and will not be part of what they call "Somaliland". Win-Win situation. (Everyone is satisfied)

It boils down to these three options.

Somalia's territorial integrity is confined to the boundaries of Somalia Italiana given the fact that there was no legal union between Somaliland and Somalia in 1960.

Your 'options' are nothing but regurgitated clan sentiments. I would even call it the Darood hypothesis of a worst case scenario.

[Arcturus]

My real intentions are to find a way for Somalis to regain their independence, pride and dignity. This means a new reality in which Ethiopia, Kenya or any other foreigners will be unable to dictate their terms to us and play around with our sovereignty. If you think Somaliland isn't dictated to by Ethiopia waad huruddaa saaxiib. No Somali region in the horn is truly sovereign. My other goal is for Somalis regions to develop economically so Somali youth won't have to risk their lives in the dessert and the high seas just for a shot at a dignified life.

So for me unity is just a means to an end. If we can achieve the above goals without uniting then I'm up for it. Independent brotherly Somali states, with mutual defence pacts and extensive economic and social integration works fine with me if this is possible. I just support unity because I believe it's the quickest and easiest way to achieve these goals.

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
iga qarso qiiq quuste
ila qaybso aan kala qabnee

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
ila qari qaan gaadhe
iga qabo oo qiime

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
iga qal kaa qancee
ila qiro aynu kala qabnee

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
ila qor tii quustee
iga qiro waan qancee

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
iga qas wey qooqdee
ila qab waa qudhunee

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
ila qaado igba qaado
iga quus ama qadhqadh

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
iga qoro iska qodo
ila quful wey qudhuntee

ii quudh aan kula qabtee
ila qeybso tii qiiqdee
iga qulqul oo qulqul

ii qulqul iga qulqul ilaa quus

Advise to somalilanders, there will be many in real life who will have similar experiences to JUGJUG. Pity them and prepare a soft cushion once they return to kiss the ground in cigal Int. Airport. It is process of awakening and i would encourage many young landers to go through these motions. The possibility exists that once a character like JUG realizes his aspirations will only be given lip-service across the border he will be hurt and metamorph into a fascist Lander who hates anything that reminds him of his past emotional commitment.

Jug has the snake by the tail and he is describing how soft it's skin is, how beautiful it's texture is and how magnificent this creature is... he has not met the head yet!

[mahoka]

My real intentions are to find a way for Somalis to regain their independence, pride and dignity. This means a new reality in which Ethiopia, Kenya or any other foreigners will be unable to dictate their terms to us and play around with our sovereignty. If you think Somaliland isn't dictated to by Ethiopia waad huruddaa saaxiib. No Somali region in the horn is truly sovereign. My other goal is for Somalis regions to develop economically so Somali youth won't have to risk their lives in the dessert and the high seas just for a shot at a dignified life.

So for me unity is just a means to an end. If we can achieve the above goals without uniting then I'm up for it. Independent brotherly Somali states, with mutual defence pacts and extensive economic and social integration works fine with me if this is possible. I just support unity because I believe it's the quickest and easiest way to achieve these goals.

My goal is this...my vision is that.... How about better yourself first. I am sick of these deluded welfare dependants in the west

[lali99]

Jugjug's character is irrational at best and delusional at worse. From the beginning, he went from believing that somaliweyn is sacrilegious and SL should come back at all cost ( a common non-isaaq point of view btw) to having multiple somali countries with multiple trade pact such economy and defence but didn't bother proposing that to his fellow non-isaaq in somalia before coming with this BS to us (another non-isaaq trait). IN the middle of that pathless though, even when all necessary informations were given to him, he went to saying publicly that SNM fight was not worth it and that isaaq should've just bow down to a murderous dictatorial regime aiming to put a genocide on them (another common non-isaaq point of view). All road lead to believing that your non isaaq and if by the Grace of Allah you are one then you do suffer from low self esteem and present symptoms of Stockholm syndrome.

For your information, we, SLder, don't believe one iota that a Somalia government could defeat us and your talking about us thinking that we "believe that we have a langaab mentality". Do yo honestly believe that anyone who are langaab or who believe that they are langaab would have taken arms against the 3rd strongest army in africa (1970's SNA)? No. We just believe that our interest is better served within an independent SL then being united to Somalia and theres nothing anyone else on this earth could do about it. Theres nothing emotional about this issue when one gets to look at them in an objective way. SL achieve more in the first 20 years of reclaiming her independence that being united with somalia for 31 years.I wouldn't understand you getting m point since you present as a character with no objective point of view (a claim that he apparently believe he has) and a non-isaaq. I would strongly urge fellow isaaqs to just let this convo die because a sheegato isn't worth your time.

[Jugjugwacwac]

Jugjug's character is irrational at best and delusional at worse. From the beginning, he went from believing that somaliweyn is sacrilegious and SL should come back at all cost ( a common non-isaaq point of view btw) to having multiple somali countries with multiple trade pact such economy and defence but didn't bother proposing that to his fellow non-isaaq in somalia before coming with this BS to us (another non-isaaq trait). IN the middle of that pathless though, even when all necessary informations were given to him, he went to saying publicly that SNM fight was not worth it and that isaaq should've just bow down to a murderous dictatorial regime aiming to put a genocide on them (another common non-isaaq point of view). All road lead to believing that your non isaaq and if by the Grace of Allah you are one then you do suffer from low self esteem and present symptoms of Stockholm syndrome.

For your information, we, SLder, don't believe one iota that a Somalia government could defeat us and your talking about us thinking that we "believe that we have a langaab mentality". Do yo honestly believe that anyone who are langaab or who believe that they are langaab would have taken arms against the 3rd strongest army in africa (1970's SNA)? No. We just believe that our interest is better served within an independent SL then being united to Somalia and theres nothing anyone else on this earth could do about it. Theres nothing emotional about this issue when one gets to look at them in an objective way. SL achieve more in the first 20 years of reclaiming her independence that being united with somalia for 31 years.I wouldn't understand you getting m point since you present as a character with no objective point of view (a claim that he apparently believe he has) and a non-isaaq. I would strongly urge fellow isaaqs to just let this convo die because a sheegato isn't worth your time.

Deal with the views presented, whether i'm Isaaq or not is immaterial to the debate. I started the debate by saying that Somaliland's independence bid doesn't have good legs to stand on, nowhere did I say a united Somalia is sacrosanct. So I'm not contradicting myself when I say I would be open to brotherly Somali neighbour states as long as they serve the same purposes a united Somali state would, namely maintaining the territorial integrity of Somali inhabited lands, removing foreign influence from our politics etc. To me unity is just a means to an end. I don't believe in any sort of political construct like it's an article of faith, unlike many of you on here who claim Somaliland is muqaddas as if it's a part of the deen. I stand by unity because I believe it's the best way to achieve the goals I've state in my posts, but if they can be realized via alternate political avenues then so be it.

As for the SNM, my view on all clan based miltias from that era and even the present era, such as Khaatumo, are already well known on this forum. I will never support a clan based militia ever.

As for your claims that Somaliland achieved more in its first 20 years of reclaiming her independence than in 31 years of unity is laughable. Somalis in the entire horn have never been worse off than they are now, regardless of which regions and states they live in. The diaspora is a mess too. I don't remember people dying by the thousands in tahriib, al-shabaab type groups, piracy, famines resulting in mass death, Ethiopia and Keyna with Somali politicians in their pockets, 70% plus unemployment rates, and the divorce/single-mother and gang violence problems in the West prior to the Somali civil war, do you? Besides a couple of these problems Somaliland and Somalilanders back home and in the qurbaha are dealing with all of them just like their fellow Somalis.

[Advo]

I feel like im reading storm front white nationalist website lmao

[Rambie]

Though you haven't presented anything solid Jug.
You try to generalize SL with Somalia by saying "Somali people suffer from this & this, so does Somaliland"
Well, we are in SL section, your headline is about SL and the subject/debate is around SL, so, it would be much more appropriate
if you talked about Somalis inside SL rather than injecting southern and diaspora into it.

But I couldn't miss the irony and the number of holes
and gaps in your arguments Jugjugwacwac. For instance, you openly
stated that Somalis today are largely "influenced by foreign entities"



What about the Somali republic? Wasn't "influenced" by the Soviets and later Americans?
Didn't Somalia lose the war in Ogaden because it "disobey" the soviets?
Didn't the central government collapse in early 1991 was largely duo to the fact that U.S
stooped arming the SNA in 1989?

Isn't the great majority of development projects under the Somali era is financed mainly by foreige aids and grants?
You see? it can go both ways.

You can't point your fingers to Somalis today as if the Somali history started in 1991
But later bring on about 1969 and how Somalis were "independent, "pride" or "dignified"
when they were not. You and I wouldn't be in foreign countries if that statement had any degree of validity.

Secondly, you're biased.

You just admitted that your family are unionist which takes away
your supposed objectiveness and the mask of impartiality you claiming to guide your judgment.

Finally, any sane person can see that you won't change
your mind or stance towards SL, so starting this thread was a big
mistake because clearly you're still hold on to your contraindicating views.

Even after I showed you that majority of present day Somalilanders (Isaaq)
were being targeted before the establishment of SNM, you still think that it wasn't
a legitimate movement for a rightful cause even after they used all peaceful means to solve government hypocrisy and double standards.
You further attempt to demonize SNM by labeling them as "clan based militia"



What else they could be to suite your high standards on legit military movements?

If you don't support the SNM or it's establishment, than you only
suggest that you approve government polices and atrocities aimed
at terrorizing Isaaq nomads and population even after all what they've
done to Somalia and Somalis.

Basically, your saying "Isaaq should have died for Somalia to live" (so much for your Somalnimo)
Am sorry, your argument doesn't hold any water, just like your naive Somaliwayne dream.

[Xildiiid]

Let us debate the views of this brother in a civilized way.

The point should not be that he should automatically change his views but we have to correct misconceptions about Somaliland. Then it's up to him to rearrange his views in accordance with the facts we gave him.

Being an ethnic nationalist should not be on the expense of other Somalis.

Yaan la is xaasidin bruh. Aduunyadan waxaan uga hadhnay waa xinka dhillooyinka ee xaasidnimada ku saleysan ee aanu isla dhex wareegeyno.

I'm glad Djibouti is quite prosperous and I hope things work out for Somalia.

My contention is, the regurgitated narrative of (fake) Somali unity is not the answer. We live in a new era and we have to come up with strategies that can address and solve the problems we face. Singing 'Somaliyeey toosoo' and waving a blue flag while calling foreign troops on each other, that the so called unionists are doing, is part of that old narrative because Somaliweyn has never been a sincere concept.

As Maxamed Mooge sang in the 70's.

'Allahayow nin daacad ah iyo nin daalim ah deeqdaada ha u simin'.

[Rambie]

Welcome back bro.

I just don't see any logic in Jug's arguments.
Furthermore, he claims to be a Cidagalle, isn't most of their territories is located in the Hawd/Ethiopia?

[Jugjugwacwac]

Though you haven't presented anything solid Jug.
You try to generalize SL with Somalia by saying "Somali people suffer from this & this, so does Somaliland"
Well, we are in SL section, your headline is about SL and the subject/debate is around SL, so, it would be much more appropriate
if you talked about Somalis inside SL rather than injecting southern and diaspora into it.

But I couldn't miss the irony and the number of holes
and gaps in your arguments Jugjugwacwac. For instance, you openly
stated that Somalis today are largely "influenced by foreign entities"



What about the Somali republic? Wasn't "influenced" by the Soviets and later Americans?
Didn't Somalia lose the war in Ogaden because it "disobey" the soviets?
Didn't the central government collapse in early 1991 was largely duo to the fact that U.S
stooped arming the SNA in 1989?

Isn't the great majority of development projects under the Somali era is financed mainly by foreige aids and grants?
You see? it can go both ways.

You can't point your fingers to Somalis today as if the Somali history started in 1991
But later bring on about 1969 and how Somalis were "independent, "pride" or "dignified"
when they were not. You and I wouldn't be in foreign countries if that statement had any degree of validity.

Secondly, you're biased.

You just admitted that your family are unionist which takes away
your supposed objectiveness and the mask of impartiality you claiming to guide your judgment.

Finally, any sane person can see that you won't change
your mind or stance towards SL, so starting this thread was a big
mistake because clearly you're still hold on to your contraindicating views.

Even after I showed you that majority of present day Somalilanders (Isaaq)
were being targeted before the establishment of SNM, you still think that it wasn't
a legitimate movement for a rightful cause even after they used all peaceful means to solve government hypocrisy and double standards.
You further attempt to demonize SNM by labeling them as "clan based militia"



What else they could be to suite your high standards on legit military movements?

If you don't support the SNM or it's establishment, than you only
suggest that you approve government polices and atrocities aimed
at terrorizing Isaaq nomads and population even after all what they've
done to Somalia and Somalis.

Basically, your saying "Isaaq should have died for Somalia to live" (so much for your Somalnimo)
Am sorry, your argument doesn't hold any water, just like your naive Somaliwayne dream.

-Of the problems I listed, besides piracy,famines resulting in mass death and al-shabaab (arguable), name one of them that we don't face as well whether backhome or in the diaspora.

-The kacaan wanted to be aligned with Russia, keyword wanted. The Russians warned him against going to war with Ethiopia and even sent Fidel Castro to convince him not to. The man wouldn't budge, and when the Kremlin betrayed him during the war he kicked the Soviets out of the country. Compare that to Somaliland and Puntland oo madaxdooda ay Ethiopia farta ugu yeedho, and the south which is essentially under occupation.

-You claim I'm biased because I have unionists in my family. If we go by this logic then ur entire argument is biased too since you undoubtedly have seccesionists in ur family.

-That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities. Before I can change my stance on the SNM I would need to know more about the extent of the WSLF crimes against Isaaqs in the hawd; whether the Kacaan was deliberately arming WSLF not just to fight Ethiopia but but also to target Isaaqs or if not whether it knew the WSLF had gone rogue and was deliberately indifferent to this fact and continued their support to the group despite Isaaq suffering. I know that's the sources you posted indicate this but I need more info. There isn't a lot of info on the net pertaining to these issues, so I'll find out more when I go to Hargaysa next insha'Allah and talk people who are in the know and were alive as the events transpired. I'm open to changing my mind though if presented with enough convincing info that the Isaaq had no choice but to rebel.

[Jugjugwacwac]

Let us debate the views of this brother in a civilized way.

The point should not be that he should automatically change his views but we have to correct misconceptions about Somaliland. Then it's up to him to rearrange his views in accordance with the facts we gave him.

Being an ethnic nationalist should not be on the expense of other Somalis.

Yaan la is xaasidin bruh. Aduunyadan waxaan uga hadhnay waa xinka dhillooyinka ee xaasidnimada ku saleysan ee aanu isla dhex wareegeyno.

I'm glad Djibouti is quite prosperous and I hope things work out for Somalia.

My contention is, the regurgitated narrative of (fake) Somali unity is not the answer. We live in a new era and we have to come up with strategies that can address and solve the problems we face. Singing 'Somaliyeey toosoo' and waving a blue flag while calling foreign troops on each other, that the so called unionists are doing, is part of that old narrative because Somaliweyn has never been a sincere concept.

As Maxamed Mooge sang in the 70's.

'Allahayow nin daacad ah iyo nin daalim ah deeqdaada ha u simin'.

The funny thing is I agree with you saaxiib, I know the majority of these ppl who propogate unionism are in reality clannish to the core and don't have a shred of patriotism. That's why I'm saying maybe Somaliland taking the lead in creating a new vision for the Somalis in the region will spearhead a paradigm shift that will sideline these crocodile tear specialists and bar them from politics. I think it would inspire true nationalists to come to the fore and do what should've been done all of these decades.