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That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities

-Of the problems I listed, besides piracy,famines resulting in mass death and al-shabaab (arguable), name one of them that we don't face as well whether backhome or in the diaspora.

-The kacaan wanted to be aligned with Russia, keyword wanted. The Russians warned him against going to war with Ethiopia and even sent Fidel Castro to convince him not to. The man wouldn't budge, and when the Kremlin betrayed him during the war he kicked the Soviets out of the country. Compare that to Somaliland and Puntland oo madaxdooda ay Ethiopia farta ugu yeedho, and the south which is essentially under occupation.

-You claim I'm biased because I have unionists in my family. If we go by this logic then ur entire argument is biased too since you undoubtedly have seccesionists in ur family.

-That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities. Before I can change my stance on the SNM I would need to know more about the extent of the WSLF crimes against Isaaqs in the hawd; whether the Kacaan was deliberately arming WSLF not just to fight Ethiopia but but also to target Isaaqs or if not whether it knew the WSLF had gone rogue and was deliberately indifferent to this fact and continued their support to the group despite Isaaq suffering. I know that's the sources you posted indicate this but I need more info. There isn't a lot of info on the net pertaining to these issues, so I'll find out more when I go to Hargaysa next insha'Allah and talk people who are in the know and were alive as the events transpired. I'm open to changing my mind though if presented with enough convincing info that the Isaaq had no choice but to rebel.

That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities

WSLF was used by Siad Barre to kill many innocent people at the end this evil guerrilla was destroyed by Ethiopia.

There is no hope in trying to resuscitate a dead patient.

A just unified Somali state of any sort is nothing but a pipe dream.

In the South, the people that fly the Blue and White are the same people that will throw their fellow Somali under a bus to further their own business or clan interest.

So what is the point of even talking about a Greater Somalia when political Somalinimo is long dead.

In my humble opinion, each clan should be left to manage their own affairs.

If I was Isaaq, I would campaign for a state based on Isaaq territory as the honest truth is they are the only ones that wholeheartedly believe in the statehood of Somalilan

We Somalis owe loyalty to our Qabil first, nationalism and a Qabil identity can only co-exist in a one Qabil state.

Somali Unity waa meyd la ase, the best hope is to go back to our traditional clan boundaries without a central authority. An EU of sorts but without a political union.

group called Afaraad made up by Isaaq nomads and when they managed to hold their ground and even defeat the WSLF

These are the three main reasons put forth to justify Somaliland's independence.

1. The political dispensation in Somalia from the very beginning in 1960 was unfair to the north. Due to the political culture of the south they are not interested in a fair and balanced system of sharing power.

2. The south is in chaos while Somaliland is an oasis of peace. Why join your house with your neighbours burning house?

3. Thousands were killed in northern cities by the Somali government. None of the criminals involved have been brought to justice.

In my opinion none of them hold water and here's why.

Ill start with the first point. To me this is misguided blame. Its not the south's fault that us northerners, swept up in a wave of nationalist sentiment, arrived in Mogadishu with the blue flag and pushed for a unity without any conditions. The southerners were much more politically shrewd and knew what was at stake. This resulted in us being sidelined during the 60s because of our own political shortcomings. But things changed with the Kacaan and northerners (including many Isaaqs) were given high level positions. In fact Siad Barre favoured the Isaaq in many ways because of their strong support for the kacaan in the early days; those of you who know about the special economic status Berbera was given for import export to the exclusion of other regions know what I'm talking about. Besides, what happened in the 60s is in the past, and we've definitely learned our lesson. Why are we acting like scared little girls who cant get whats rightfully theirs when it involves other Somalis? This baffles me because anyone whose seen someone from a northern city like Burco would know that reer waqooyi aren't push overs. I know all nomadic Somalis are like this, but northeners, regardless of clan, are especially known to be boisterous, loud and in your face, hence the term qaldaan. So its bizarre that they, specifically the Isaaq, practically turn into pussycats and want to hide in a corner when it comes to politics. My point is, everyone knows that northerners were wronged in the 60s, and this will definitely not happen again. In fact its more likely that the scenario will be reversed and that this time Somaliland will be in the drivers seat for a while with the blessing of the majority of Somalis, because they have much needed experience and expertise in governance.

This second point has the most merit, but it's only because Somaliland is much easier to pacify than the south. It's nowhere close to the confusing and competing patchwork of clans that reside in the south. It's basically the Isaaq, who form a big majority, along with some Harti (Dhulbahante, Warsangali) and Dir sublcans (Ciise, Gadabuursi). There are also smaller clans like the Madhibaan and the Fiqishinni (Subclan of Cayr, Habar Gidir). That's it. Also, it's culturally homogenous, with high intermarriage rates between the clans. This means wanton killings are very unlikley since dadku waa wiil iyo abtigii, and also because we all share the same xeer and thus our elders will be able to establish peace under a tree. Forget a myriad of clans, the south even has different ethnic groups and languages for Gods sake, so of course it going to be a very tall order to establish peace under such conditions. Not to mention that the capital is in the south, so all groups, like Al-shabaab and Amisom, who are vying to control this country will focus their attacks in Mogadishu. So it's not that northerners are inherently more peaceful, it's just that they've been lucky to live in an ethnically and culturally homogenous region, with very few competing clans and also happen to be very far away from the capital which is the epicentre of the violence. So when looked at from this light, the notion that southerners are savages and 'zoomalis' falls flat on its face. There is no difference between a Murursade man in Dayniile and an Ciidagale man in Salaxlay, it's just that the conditions they live in are different. In my opinion, it's Somaliland and Puntland's moral responsibility to team up and kick out both al-shabaab and Amisom from the south and pacify it. We can then move towards national reconciliation involving all the clans and factions and then form a strong unity government once there is forgiveness and trust is restored.

As for the last point usually brought up to support secession, I'll say this. First of all, the SNM rebellion preceded the bombings of Hargaysa and Burco. I see many Isaaqs making the mistake of saying the SNM had to fight the kacaan because it was bombing and killing their people, when in fact it was the other way around. We started the SNM in 1981 with the intent of toppling the regime, and then the SNM stormed the major cities of the north in 1988, which is what led to the bombings. Of course Siad Barre was dead wrong for bombing civilians, but he was a man desperate to hold on to power and would do anything to maintain his kursi. Look at what he did to his own kinsman in Mudug and Bari when they formed the SSDF. Wells were poisoned and many were killed, but the majeerteen have moved on and rarely bring this up. I know what happened in the north was worse, but we have to stop this victim mentality and stop peddling this victimhood narrative, because it's not befitting of the proud Isaaq clan. I'm not some african american living amongst cadaans, I'm a proud Somali living amongst fellow Somalis, so stop embarassing us with this victim bullshit and move the eff on. Also, it was the Kacaan that was responsible for the killings, so I don't get why many Somalilanders like to blame all daaroods or all southerners for it. What does a Mareexaan lady selling vegetables in Caabudwaaq or an Abgaal man in Ceelbuur have to do with the bombings in the north? The answer is absolutely nothing. Not even the current so called government of somalia has anything to do with it. Siad Barre's regime is long gone. So if Rwanda can move past the genocide of 1994, when neighbour was slaughtering neighbour, why can't we move on from what happened in the 80's, especially when we're not even up against those responsible for it?

And one last point, really quickly. An economic case can't be put forward either. The north is just as poor and unemployment just as rampant as in the rest of the country. Just look at the tahriib epidemic.

So is there any secessionist out there who can counter all of this with a convincing argument for secession?

Let us debate the views of this brother in a civilized way.

The point should not be that he should automatically change his views but we have to correct misconceptions about Somaliland. Then it's up to him to rearrange his views in accordance with the facts we gave him.

Being an ethnic nationalist should not be on the expense of other Somalis.

Yaan la is xaasidin bruh. Aduunyadan waxaan uga hadhnay waa xinka dhillooyinka ee xaasidnimada ku saleysan ee aanu isla dhex wareegeyno.

I'm glad Djibouti is quite prosperous and I hope things work out for Somalia.

My contention is, the regurgitated narrative of (fake) Somali unity is not the answer. We live in a new era and we have to come up with strategies that can address and solve the problems we face. Singing 'Somaliyeey toosoo' and waving a blue flag while calling foreign troops on each other, that the so called unionists are doing, is part of that old narrative because Somaliweyn has never been a sincere concept.

As Maxamed Mooge sang in the 70's.

'Allahayow nin daacad ah iyo nin daalim ah deeqdaada ha u simin'.

The funny thing is I agree with you saaxiib, I know the majority of these ppl who propogate unionism are in reality clannish to the core and don't have a shred of patriotism. That's why I'm saying maybe Somaliland taking the lead in creating a new vision for the Somalis in the region will spearhead a paradigm shift that will sideline these crocodile tear specialists and bar them from politics. I think it would inspire true nationalists to come to the fore and do what should've been done all of these decades.