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Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

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Grant
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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Grant » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:59 pm

It's normal scholarly caution to use alleged and claims since no study has been done, but she never called it fake either.
[/quote]

I read that very differently from you. She doesn't use that language anywhere else in the paper, nor anywhere else at all that I have seen. My thinking is that Sada does not directly address the issue for fear of further offending the xenophobes, Hildiiid coming to mind. Sada is often herself under attack by Somalis as an "outsider". I still believe the main professional issue, for both Egyptologists and archaeologists, is the lack of provenience. I know of no one who has taken up the subject.

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Xildiiid » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:45 am



My 23andme says I am E-L29 = E1b1b1c1a. These are Natufian descendants, farmers who first settled Europe after the Ice Age and the same folks who provided the Asiatic components in Somalis and other E1b1b carriers. I am not Jewish, or even religious, and I have been through that many times before.

I have nothing special against Somaliland or the Isaaq, although I spent more time in, and feel closer to the South.

Pursuing the truth does not make one anti anything.
You're not a Natufian descendant.

One of your ancestors (Y-DNA) comes from the Horn of Africa. Your autosomal DNA is European.
I am absolutely a Natufian descendant. I am E1b1b1c1a, which traces directly back. E1b1b = M123. E-L29 is just downstream.

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/E1b1b-M123


My 23andme:

"Your paternal line traces back to the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M123, a man who may have lived in eastern Africa over 20,000 years ago. At some time during the next 10,000 years, some of his descendants migrated north to the Levant and the Middle East, where the lineage is quite common today. In fact, evidence once suggested that the southern Levant may have been the birthplace of the haplogroup. It was there, soon after the Ice Age drew to a close 11,500 years ago, that humans first learned to domesticate cereals and livestock, and completely transformed their way of life. In fact, farming and herding were such successful strategies that populations boomed, sparking waves of migration into Europe and Africa about 8,000 years ago. Some of those men likely bore the E-M123 haplogroup, and as they migrated they introduced not only their technology and culture, but also the paternal lineage.

Today, some of the highest concentrations of men bearing haplogroup E-M123 and its diverse branches are found in eastern Africa, where they make up between 5 and 10% of men in parts of Ethiopia, Kenya, and Somalia. Farther east, nearly 10% of men tested in Oman and 8% in Yemen carry the haplogroup. And to the north, they are found at low frequencies among Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians, and others.

The other great peak of men bearing E-M123 is in the southern Levant. They are spread throughout the Middle East and in present-day Turkey at frequencies of about 5%, and make up about 13% of the male population in Jordan. Though generally rare in Europe, E-M123 can be found among men along the Mediterranean Sea, and is at its most common in Sicily (7%) and Sardinia (4%). Even at the far western edge, the lineage found in the Iberian Peninsula, especially among men from Portugal and the Spanish region of Galicia."

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.

Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This evidence suggests that at the end of the last glaciation 12,000 years ago, E1b1b men were present in the Levant, but not in other parts of the Near East. There is evidence that the Natufians already cultivated cereals like rye before the Neolithic period. Cereal farming may therefore trace its roots (literally) to the E1b1b tribes of the Mesolithic Levant."

You're misrepresenting facts as usual. Yes, your Y-DNA reached Europe with Neolithic farmers from North Africa/Levant.

Were they Natufians? Most likely no, since neolithic migration to Europe was successive.

Its just a mere suggestion by 23andme.

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby JSL3000 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:01 am

I didnt see that coming grant is one wierd dude is he yibir. :lol:

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Grant » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:53 am



You're not a Natufian descendant.

One of your ancestors (Y-DNA) comes from the Horn of Africa. Your autosomal DNA is European.
I am absolutely a Natufian descendant. I am E1b1b1c1a, which traces directly back. E1b1b = M123. E-L29 is just downstream.

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/E1b1b-M123


My 23andme:

"Your paternal line traces back to the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M123, a man who may have lived in eastern Africa over 20,000 years ago. At some time during the next 10,000 years, some of his descendants migrated north to the Levant and the Middle East, where the lineage is quite common today. In fact, evidence once suggested that the southern Levant may have been the birthplace of the haplogroup. It was there, soon after the Ice Age drew to a close 11,500 years ago, that humans first learned to domesticate cereals and livestock, and completely transformed their way of life. In fact, farming and herding were such successful strategies that populations boomed, sparking waves of migration into Europe and Africa about 8,000 years ago. Some of those men likely bore the E-M123 haplogroup, and as they migrated they introduced not only their technology and culture, but also the paternal lineage.

Today, some of the highest concentrations of men bearing haplogroup E-M123 and its diverse branches are found in eastern Africa, where they make up between 5 and 10% of men in parts of Ethiopia, Kenya, and Somalia. Farther east, nearly 10% of men tested in Oman and 8% in Yemen carry the haplogroup. And to the north, they are found at low frequencies among Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians, and others.

The other great peak of men bearing E-M123 is in the southern Levant. They are spread throughout the Middle East and in present-day Turkey at frequencies of about 5%, and make up about 13% of the male population in Jordan. Though generally rare in Europe, E-M123 can be found among men along the Mediterranean Sea, and is at its most common in Sicily (7%) and Sardinia (4%). Even at the far western edge, the lineage found in the Iberian Peninsula, especially among men from Portugal and the Spanish region of Galicia."

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.

Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This evidence suggests that at the end of the last glaciation 12,000 years ago, E1b1b men were present in the Levant, but not in other parts of the Near East. There is evidence that the Natufians already cultivated cereals like rye before the Neolithic period. Cereal farming may therefore trace its roots (literally) to the E1b1b tribes of the Mesolithic Levant."

You're misrepresenting facts as usual. Yes, your Y-DNA reached Europe with Neolithic farmers from North Africa/Levant.

Were they Natufians? Most likely no, since neolithic migration to Europe was successive.

Its just a mere suggestion by 23andme.
The Natufians are long gone. What I said was Natufian descendant, which a majority of Somalis and some Europeans both are. Hitler, Napoleon and US President Lyndon Baines Johnson and I are all E1b1b. What the 23andme article says is:

"....farming and herding were such successful strategies that populations boomed, sparking waves of migration into Europe and Africa about 8,000 years ago.' This agrees with other studies.'

E1b1b in africa is the same out-migration that produced E1b1b in Europe. Somalis aren''t Natufians either.

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby PrinceNugaalHawd » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:54 pm

They look fake to me.

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Xildiiid » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:57 pm



I am absolutely a Natufian descendant. I am E1b1b1c1a, which traces directly back. E1b1b = M123. E-L29 is just downstream.

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/E1b1b-M123


My 23andme:

"Your paternal line traces back to the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M123, a man who may have lived in eastern Africa over 20,000 years ago. At some time during the next 10,000 years, some of his descendants migrated north to the Levant and the Middle East, where the lineage is quite common today. In fact, evidence once suggested that the southern Levant may have been the birthplace of the haplogroup. It was there, soon after the Ice Age drew to a close 11,500 years ago, that humans first learned to domesticate cereals and livestock, and completely transformed their way of life. In fact, farming and herding were such successful strategies that populations boomed, sparking waves of migration into Europe and Africa about 8,000 years ago. Some of those men likely bore the E-M123 haplogroup, and as they migrated they introduced not only their technology and culture, but also the paternal lineage.

Today, some of the highest concentrations of men bearing haplogroup E-M123 and its diverse branches are found in eastern Africa, where they make up between 5 and 10% of men in parts of Ethiopia, Kenya, and Somalia. Farther east, nearly 10% of men tested in Oman and 8% in Yemen carry the haplogroup. And to the north, they are found at low frequencies among Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians, and others.

The other great peak of men bearing E-M123 is in the southern Levant. They are spread throughout the Middle East and in present-day Turkey at frequencies of about 5%, and make up about 13% of the male population in Jordan. Though generally rare in Europe, E-M123 can be found among men along the Mediterranean Sea, and is at its most common in Sicily (7%) and Sardinia (4%). Even at the far western edge, the lineage found in the Iberian Peninsula, especially among men from Portugal and the Spanish region of Galicia."

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.

Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This evidence suggests that at the end of the last glaciation 12,000 years ago, E1b1b men were present in the Levant, but not in other parts of the Near East. There is evidence that the Natufians already cultivated cereals like rye before the Neolithic period. Cereal farming may therefore trace its roots (literally) to the E1b1b tribes of the Mesolithic Levant."

You're misrepresenting facts as usual. Yes, your Y-DNA reached Europe with Neolithic farmers from North Africa/Levant.

Were they Natufians? Most likely no, since neolithic migration to Europe was successive.

Its just a mere suggestion by 23andme.
The Natufians are long gone. What I said was Natufian descendant, which a majority of Somalis and some Europeans both are. Hitler, Napoleon and US President Lyndon Baines Johnson and I are all E1b1b. What the 23andme article says is:

"....farming and herding were such successful strategies that populations boomed, sparking waves of migration into Europe and Africa about 8,000 years ago.' This agrees with other studies.'

E1b1b in africa is the same out-migration that produced E1b1b in Europe. Somalis aren''t Natufians either.
E1b1b is African.The Natufians just happen to carry this haologroup as well.

Somalis are not descendants of Natufians but some of our autosomal DNA share similar origin with that of Natufians and its not surprising given that these autosomes represent our common ancestry (Afro-Asiatic).

In essence, our connection to the Natufians is not through Y-DNA/Mtdna.

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Grant » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:03 pm


E1b1b is African.The Natufians just happen to carry this haologroup as well.

Somalis are not descendants of Natufians but some of our autosomal DNA share similar origin with that of Natufians and its not surprising given that these autosomes represent our common ancestry (Afro-Asiatic).

In essence, our connection to the Natufians is not through Y-DNA/Mtdna.

You seem DNA-challenged.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136."

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Xildiiid » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:12 pm


E1b1b is African.The Natufians just happen to carry this haologroup as well.

Somalis are not descendants of Natufians but some of our autosomal DNA share similar origin with that of Natufians and its not surprising given that these autosomes represent our common ancestry (Afro-Asiatic).

In essence, our connection to the Natufians is not through Y-DNA/Mtdna.

You seem DNA-challenged.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136."

You're conflating. :umad:

Everything Ive stated is factual. Your Y-DNA came to Europe with the successive migration of neolithic farmers and they were not Natufians.

Natufian = a specific culture in southern Levant

Somali connection to Natufians is based on our autosomal DNA which indicates similar ancestral origins (Afro-Asiatic). This connection is not based on our Y-DNA/Mtdna lineages like you're suggesting.
"Ancient DNA analysis has confirmed ancestral ties between the Natufian culture bearers and the makers of the Epipaleolithic Iberomaurusian culture of the Maghreb, the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture of the Levant, the Early Neolithic Ifri n'Amr or Moussa culture of the Maghreb, the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic culture of East Africa, the Late Neolithic Kelif el Boroud culture of the Maghreb, and the Ancient Egyptian culture of the Nile Valley, with fossils associated with these early cultures all sharing a common genomic component"

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Grant » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:11 pm


E1b1b is African.The Natufians just happen to carry this haologroup as well.

Somalis are not descendants of Natufians but some of our autosomal DNA share similar origin with that of Natufians and its not surprising given that these autosomes represent our common ancestry (Afro-Asiatic).

In essence, our connection to the Natufians is not through Y-DNA/Mtdna.

You seem DNA-challenged.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136."

You're conflating. :umad:

Everything Ive stated is factual. Your Y-DNA came to Europe with the successive migration of neolithic farmers and they were not Natufians.

Natufian = a specific culture in southern Levant

Somali connection to Natufians is based on our autosomal DNA which indicates similar ancestral origins (Afro-Asiatic). This connection is not based on our Y-DNA/Mtdna lineages like you're suggesting.
"Ancient DNA analysis has confirmed ancestral ties between the Natufian culture bearers and the makers of the Epipaleolithic Iberomaurusian culture of the Maghreb, the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture of the Levant, the Early Neolithic Ifri n'Amr or Moussa culture of the Maghreb, the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic culture of East Africa, the Late Neolithic Kelif el Boroud culture of the Maghreb, and the Ancient Egyptian culture of the Nile Valley, with fossils associated with these early cultures all sharing a common genomic component"
You just proved my point.

Your quote is from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B

Which shows the sequence from Paleolithic Natufian to pre-pottery Neolithic, to early Neolithic, the late Neolithic and the ancient Egyptian culture of the Nile valley which followed. These were sequential and not contemporaneous.

https://www.thoughtco.com/natufian-peri ... ers-171958

"The Natufian culture is the name given to the sedentary Late Epi-Paleolithic hunter-gatherers living in the Levant region of the near east between about 12,500 and 10,200 years ago. The Natufians foraged for food such as emmer wheat, barley, and almonds, and hunted gazelle, deer, cattle, horse, and wild boar.

The direct descendants of the Natufian (known as the pre-pottery Neolithic or PPN) were among the earliest farmers on the planet."

The migration that brought farming and herding from the Levant to Europe and Africa was at 8 Kya and it involved these same pre-pottery Neolithic people, direct descendants of the Natufians..

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Xildiiid » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:55 pm




You seem DNA-challenged.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogro ... -DNA.shtml

"Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136."

You're conflating. :umad:

Everything Ive stated is factual. Your Y-DNA came to Europe with the successive migration of neolithic farmers and they were not Natufians.

Natufian = a specific culture in southern Levant

Somali connection to Natufians is based on our autosomal DNA which indicates similar ancestral origins (Afro-Asiatic). This connection is not based on our Y-DNA/Mtdna lineages like you're suggesting.
"Ancient DNA analysis has confirmed ancestral ties between the Natufian culture bearers and the makers of the Epipaleolithic Iberomaurusian culture of the Maghreb, the Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture of the Levant, the Early Neolithic Ifri n'Amr or Moussa culture of the Maghreb, the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic culture of East Africa, the Late Neolithic Kelif el Boroud culture of the Maghreb, and the Ancient Egyptian culture of the Nile Valley, with fossils associated with these early cultures all sharing a common genomic component"
You just proved my point.

Your quote is from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B

Which shows the sequence from Paleolithic Natufian to pre-pottery Neolithic, to early Neolithic, the late Neolithic and the ancient Egyptian culture of the Nile valley which followed. These were sequential and not contemporaneous.

https://www.thoughtco.com/natufian-peri ... ers-171958

"The Natufian culture is the name given to the sedentary Late Epi-Paleolithic hunter-gatherers living in the Levant region of the near east between about 12,500 and 10,200 years ago. The Natufians foraged for food such as emmer wheat, barley, and almonds, and hunted gazelle, deer, cattle, horse, and wild boar.

The direct descendants of the Natufian (known as the pre-pottery Neolithic or PPN) were among the earliest farmers on the planet."

The migration that brought farming and herding from the Levant to Europe and Africa was at 8 Kya and it involved these same pre-pottery Neolithic people, direct descendants of the Natufians..
You're still conflating.

The quote I posted proves that people from the Horn of Africa (Cushitic/Semitic speakers) share an ancestral component (Afro-Asiatic) with the ancient populations mentioned above. Our connection to these people is not based on Y-DNA/Mtdna haplogroups even though we share similar haplogroups.

This genomic component doesnt exist in your autosomal DNA. Nonetheless, your Y-DNA came to Europe with neolithic farmers through successive migrations. It could also have been introduced at a later stage. Either way, that one ancestor of yours were not Natufian, maybe a Natufian descendant like 23andme suggested

How does it feel though, you hate Somalis but theres a possibiliy that you're related to Somalis. :stylin:

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Re: Pharaonic artifacts in SL fake or real?

Postby Grant » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:48 am

Hildiid,

Your comprehension of the posted articles, and of DNA in general, is abysmal. Just on a lark, try this one, showing early migration from the Levant to Africa and later migration of the Cardial culture ( Pottery-making Pre-pottery Neolithic descendants from Biblos/northern Levant) crossing from Spain into Morocco.

"Ancient genomes from North Africa evidence prehistoric migrations to the Maghreb from both the Levant and Europe"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/191569v2

"Among ancient populations, early Neolithic Moroccans share affinities with Levantine Natufian hunter-gatherers (~9,000 BCE) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers (~6,500 BCE). Late Neolithic (~3,000 BCE) Moroccan remains, in comparison, share an Iberian component of a prominent European-wide demic expansion, supporting theories of trans-Gibraltar gene flow. Finally, the Andalusian Early Neolithic samples share the same genetic composition as the Cardial Mediterranean Neolithic culture that reached Iberia ~5,500 BCE. The cultural and genetic similarities of the Iberian Neolithic cultures with that of North African Neolithic sites further reinforce the model of an Iberian intrusion into the Maghreb."

Note the "European-wide demic expansion", which would be my folks.
You can get more on the Cardial peoples here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_pottery

-------------------------------------------------------

I don't hate Somalis, but I am somewhat disgusted by their xenophobia and refusal to read/accept the scholarly material that does not agree with their preconceptions. It's embarrassing. My genetic connection to Somalis is not in question. With various other additions over time, we all still descend from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic descendants of the Natufians.


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