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Imam,

Isaaq are not Banu Hashim. No one can be that delusional. Even though I personally believe Isaaq is a stand-alone clan, the Dir claim is more realistic than an old Arab man having African flower waiting for him on the coast.

Btw, Ismail Ali Abokor was SNM. Indeed, he was part of the central committee and Vice President but he was also jailed by the same Kacaan junta.

I also agree that Isaaqu waa dad xun, bilaa abaal ah.

The Isaaq’s claiming Dir or whatever are just giving ammunition to the Darods. When the subject really should be about how the Boon midgaans have clearly absorbed known midgaans and it’s clear record. And or the Majerteen count 30+ to jerberti whilst the Dhulbahnte count to 21? Instead we have this dibjir Yusuf and some Oromo kid here bringing to question a perfect group with zero question mark over anybody’s count to Isaaq.

What does this Dir group add to Isaaq? If anything they should be claiming Isaaq. We out number them are in a stronger position financially. And in our hour of need, I don’t remember a Dir section of the SNM. We have sympathy for the small Dir groups in the south fighting for survival but the Cisse and Gudabirsi can fuck off..

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

My closest non Somali paternal relatives based on genetics i.e T-MRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) happen to be the Bani Malik clan in UAE/Iraq/Kuwait specifically the Al-Ali subclan followed by some Ashkenaz Jews and south Europeans (Sicilians, Italians, Greek) etc.

This does not mean I’m not Somali because my autosomal DNA is Somali.

You should stop being insecure.

Need I remind you that in this very topic, you earlier said.

You have to do the big Y-DNA test where they compare STR mutations and determine T-MCRA. I haven’t taken a DNA test.

Abti, you're a Black nigger.

Maybe a different one with possibly different features that express the different environment you evolved (the arid semi-desert for you, the jungles of Cameroon for the Bantu), but you're still a goddamn Black nigger. As am I.

Aint nothing more pitiful to witness than the coonery of this guy.

The Isaaq’s claiming Dir or whatever are just giving ammunition to the Darods. When the subject really should be about how the Boon midgaans have clearly absorbed known midgaans and it’s clear record. And or the Majerteen count 30+ to jerberti whilst the Dhulbahnte count to 21? Instead we have this dibjir Yusuf and some Oromo kid here bringing to question a perfect group with zero question mark over anybody’s count to Isaaq.

What does this Dir group add to Isaaq? If anything they should be claiming Isaaq. We out number them are in a stronger position financially. And in our hour of need, I don’t remember a Dir section of the SNM. We have sympathy for the small Dir groups in the south fighting for survival but the Cisse and Gudabirsi can fuck off..

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with you.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

Odaygii Sheekh habar yoonis oo Aakhiro kasoo hadlay kana hadlay arrinta walaalkii habar Jeclo oo 70% caruurtiisu ay soo baxeen E-V32

Sheekh habar yoonis : walaal habar jeclo you have to sit down with your mother ( habar Xabuusheed ) and have a serious talk kkkkkkkkkkk

Voltage,

You still haven’t explained how Haplogroup T = Dir. Do the Assyrians, Sicilians and Cretans belong to the Dir clan?

Also there’s something called founder effect in genetics. The highest frequency of Haplogroup T is found in the Somali Peninsula. However that doesn’t mean the haplogroup originated there because the oldest and most diverse T lineages are still found in the Middle East.

My closest non Somali paternal relatives based on genetics i.e T-MRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) happen to be the Bani Malik clan in UAE/Iraq/Kuwait specifically the Al-Ali subclan followed by some Ashkenaz Jews and south Europeans (Sicilians, Italians, Greek) etc.

This does not mean I’m not Somali because my autosomal DNA is Somali.

You should stop being insecure.

Need I remind you that in this very topic, you earlier said.

You have to do the big Y-DNA test where they compare STR mutations and determine T-MCRA. I haven’t taken a DNA test.

Abti, you're a Black nigger.

Maybe a different one with possibly different features that express the different environment you evolved (the arid semi-desert for you, the jungles of Cameroon for the Bantu), but you're still a goddamn Black nigger. As am I.

Aint nothing more pitiful to witness than the coonery of this guy.

My paternal cousin took the test and a clansman got the same results so I can definitely make a statement about my paternal lineage.

You still can’t differentiate between Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA. Adeer take a seat and stop posting ridiculous comments about things you do not understand.

The Isaaq’s claiming Dir or whatever are just giving ammunition to the Darods. When the subject really should be about how the Boon midgaans have clearly absorbed known midgaans and it’s clear record. And or the Majerteen count 30+ to jerberti whilst the Dhulbahnte count to 21? Instead we have this dibjir Yusuf and some Oromo kid here bringing to question a perfect group with zero question mark over anybody’s count to Isaaq.

What does this Dir group add to Isaaq? If anything they should be claiming Isaaq. We out number them are in a stronger position financially. And in our hour of need, I don’t remember a Dir section of the SNM. We have sympathy for the small Dir groups in the south fighting for survival but the Cisse and Gudabirsi can fuck off..

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

Where do you get these numbers?

70% of Habar Jeclo?

Half of Habar Yoonis?

80% of Ciise? Btw, the sample size from that study was 22 individuals who could all be closely related.

What’s worse than this is the fact that Darood do not share MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor), except for a section of the Harti, despite the majority of Darod belonging to E-V32. How do you explain that?

The Isaaq’s claiming Dir or whatever are just giving ammunition to the Darods. When the subject really should be about how the Boon midgaans have clearly absorbed known midgaans and it’s clear record. And or the Majerteen count 30+ to jerberti whilst the Dhulbahnte count to 21? Instead we have this dibjir Yusuf and some Oromo kid here bringing to question a perfect group with zero question mark over anybody’s count to Isaaq.

What does this Dir group add to Isaaq? If anything they should be claiming Isaaq. We out number them are in a stronger position financially. And in our hour of need, I don’t remember a Dir section of the SNM. We have sympathy for the small Dir groups in the south fighting for survival but the Cisse and Gudabirsi can fuck off..

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

What’s worse than this is the fact that ((( Darood do not share MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor), ))) except for a section of the Harti, despite the majority of Darod belonging to E-V32. How do you explain that?

Ok cool , can you prove it ?

I know when someone is trying to muddy the waters.

We all know the Somali people is a reality that exists just like the Isaaq clan living together with a common socio-politico unity is a reality that exists.

So save all your bs about all the factors that explain this.

Is your Y-DNA not directly passed from father to son to grandson to great-grandson, etc?

It is.

If a Habar Yonis has a T-haplogroup Y-DNA, then he has shared A MORE RECENT FATHER with Ciise Madoobe Dired than the majority of Habar Jeclo (who carry E-V32).

We don't care about your autosomal and all the other things that tell us things we know; that Isaaq is a reality that exists who intermarry, live in the same land, and share common cultural features.

We know that. NO ONE'S CONTESTING THAT.

But if you are an Isaaq with T Y-DNA (like Habar Yonis), you share a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe than the you do with Isaaq with E-V32 Y-DNA.

One more time so this is clear:

Autosomal and all that other stuff just prove you fully joined the unit after adoption, but to see whether you were adopted or not IS ONLY PROVEN by your Y-DNA (aka who is your daddy).

So let's say a group of Ciise Madoobe Dir left their tribe long ago and were adopted into "Habar Yonis."

Obviously today after so much intermarriage (giving each other girls) and sharing socio-cultural artifacts, their genetic information will be near identical.

But that will never take away from the fact that the adopted group will ALWAYS have the Y-DNA of their original Ciise Madoobe group.

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

What’s worse than this is the fact that ((( Darood do not share MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor), ))) except for a section of the Harti, despite the majority of Darod belonging to E-V32. How do you explain that?

Ok cool , can you prove it ?

It’s the current trends this far and if more Somalis do the Big Y-DNA test we’ll see more discrepancies especially among Beesha Darod.

Look at the spreadsheet at the Somali DNA project.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/so ... e=yresults

I know when someone is trying to muddy the waters.

We all know the Somali people is a reality that exists just like the Isaaq clan living together with a common socio-politico unity is a reality that exists.

So save all your bs about all the factors that explain this.

Is your Y-DNA not directly passed from father to son to grandson to great-grandson, etc?

It is.

If a Habar Yonis has a T-haplogroup Y-DNA, then he has shared A MORE RECENT FATHER with Ciise Madoobe Dired than the majority of Habar Jeclo (who carry E-V32).

We don't care about your autosomal and all the other things that tell us things we know; that Isaaq is a reality that exists who intermarry, live in the same land, and share common cultural features.

We know that. NO ONE'S CONTESTING THAT.

But if you are an Isaaq with T Y-DNA (like Habar Yonis), you share a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe than the you do with Isaaq with E-V32 Y-DNA.

One more time so this is clear:

Autosomal and all that other stuff just prove you fully joined the unit after adoption, but to see whether you were adopted or not IS ONLY PROVEN by your Y-DNA (aka who is your daddy).

So let's say a group of Ciise Madoobe Dir left their tribe long ago and were adopted into "Habar Yonis."

Obviously today after so much intermarriage (giving each other girls) and sharing socio-cultural artifacts, their genetic information will be near identical.

But that will never take away from the fact that the adopted group will ALWAYS have the Y-DNA of their original Ciise Madoobe group.

You started talking about features and arid climates and what not. Phenotype has nothing to do with Y-DNA and that’s why I mentioned autosomal DNA.

Actually there seems to be an Isaaq-Dir split with Isaaq haplogroup T carriers being closer to each other than they are to Dir haplogroup T carriers.

The only anomaly are the Ciise and Gudabiirsi who could be closer to Isaaq T carriers than they are to Dir T carriers.

What if these two clan were originally Isaaq before being excommunicated? We already have two clans among Ciise who are originally HJ and Toljeclo respectively. Wardiiq Ciise (Yeesif-HJ) and Hooroone Ciise (Toljeclo).

Clans are social constructs and no one is denying that but we are bound by blood money and centuries of intermarriage and alliance.

I know when someone is trying to muddy the waters.

We all know the Somali people is a reality that exists just like the Isaaq clan living together with a common socio-politico unity is a reality that exists.

So save all your bs about all the factors that explain this.

Is your Y-DNA not directly passed from father to son to grandson to great-grandson, etc?

It is.

If a Habar Yonis has a T-haplogroup Y-DNA, then he has shared A MORE RECENT FATHER with Ciise Madoobe Dired than the majority of Habar Jeclo (who carry E-V32).

We don't care about your autosomal and all the other things that tell us things we know; that Isaaq is a reality that exists who intermarry, live in the same land, and share common cultural features.

We know that. NO ONE'S CONTESTING THAT.

But if you are an Isaaq with T Y-DNA (like Habar Yonis), you share a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe than the you do with Isaaq with E-V32 Y-DNA.

One more time so this is clear:

Autosomal and all that other stuff just prove you fully joined the unit after adoption, but to see whether you were adopted or not IS ONLY PROVEN by your Y-DNA (aka who is your daddy).

So let's say a group of Ciise Madoobe Dir left their tribe long ago and were adopted into "Habar Yonis."

Obviously today after so much intermarriage (giving each other girls) and sharing socio-cultural artifacts, their genetic information will be near identical.

But that will never take away from the fact that the adopted group will ALWAYS have the Y-DNA of their original Ciise Madoobe group.

You started talking about features and arid climates and what not. Phenotype has nothing to do with Y-DNA and that’s why I mentioned autosomal DNA.

Actually there seems to be an Isaaq-Dir split with Isaaq haplogroup T carriers being closer to each other than they are to Dir haplogroup T carriers.

The only anomaly are the Ciise and Gudabiirsi who could be closer to Isaaq T carriers than they are to Dir T carriers.

What if these two clan were originally Isaaq before being excommunicated? We already have two clans among Ciise who are originally HJ and Toljeclo respectively. Wardiiq Ciise (Yeesif-HJ) and Hooroone Ciise (Toljeclo).

Clans are social constructs and no one is denying that but we are bound by blood money and centuries of intermarriage and alliance.

There is no point in using DNA in an argument when there is not sufficient evidence to make generalisations.

Firstly, there are only around three HG-T 100+ STR test results on FTDNA. These samples belong to a Muse Cabdalle HY individual, a Samaron individual and a Surre sample. Even 100+ STR tests are not entirely reliable when assessing deep male lineages such as those of Somali clans. For instance, the Surre is almost as closely related to the above two as he is to the Scottish Y16897 sample if one was to go by STR's alone. However, they are much better than the error ridden limited STR tests some do. There are no other Dir HG-T results to speak of on FTDNA. On 23andme, there are Gurgura and Biimaal T's but none have tested with FTDNA which is more suitable for tracing male ancestry.

Secondly, DNA tests that use few STR's are a bad predictor as they even suggest a split between the Isaaq T results with some supposedly closer to the Samaron individual than they are to other Isaaqs. Hence, making generalisations based on limited STR's alone is folly to say the least. It is not wise to argue that there is any sort of split without first doing a Big Y Test. For example, on McGee's calculator, by solely using 12 STR tests, the closest relative was a Middle Eastern individual who did not even belong to the same T subclade. The same goes for the limited Darood E-V32 STR tests results. FFS, many of them do not event test more than 25 STR's.

Nonetheless, the most consistent T STR results available of any clan are that of the Ciise in the Iacovacci study. Those guys appear to be a clan cluster in that they have a unique STR DNA signature which points to them descending from the same clan founding father. They are sufficiently differentiated from the Isaaq, Samaron and Surre STR's. The Ciise are not alone in this in my opinion and with more individuals getting tested on FTDNA, a pattern will emerge where certain subclans will most definitely be based on blood and not necessarily a social construct.

There is definitely some truth to subclan identities formed after the adoption of Islam around 800-1000 years ago. The Harti might have an anomaly in Maxamud Saleeban, however, diverse Harti subclans all share a common ancestor within the past 800-1200 years max. This means there is also some truth to the Sheegaad concept where certain clans have adopted others. The difference is that some subclans maintain their clan homogeneity by identifying who is a blood clan member and who isn't as is the case with the Ciise, Samaron, Gurgura etc. whilst other have buried it in the mists of History.

X.playa

How many years have you been beating the same dead horse?

By creating threads such as this one on Somalinet, all you are doing is bringing attention to the fact that some of y'all got Daddy Issues. On the one hand you have Isaaqs on social media etc. waving Dir Poms Poms and claiming 'Dir', 'Irir' whilst you wage a one man war against the 'Dir' label by even going as far as claiming Dir is not a clan but refers to people in general or settlers etc. just because your clan has long been held to be a subclan of Dir by many among your own subclan and the wider Somali population.

You will never see a Somali Sultan or prominent politician who claims to belong to a stand-alone 'Major' clan, Raxanweyn and Samaale Confederates being the exception, claiming that they are a subclan of another Somali clan.

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.[/b]

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

Where are you getting your stats from?

There has been no representative study of Somali clans. However, going by people's matches on 23andme, HY are overwhelmingly T whilst the Habar Jeclo also has several T individuals, possibly all are Maxamed Abokor (Xildiid and Yusuf's subclan), they form the majority of the Habar Jeclos in Togdheer and Saaxil. A Toljeclo, former traditional leaders of the Isaaq clan, clan member also carries haplogroup T on FTDNA. T is quite ubiquitous among Isaaqs in general but a sizeable percentage also belong to E-V32.

It is also not given that T is the genetic marker of Dir even though the limited evidence points that way as it is found at high percentages among those clans that have a connection to Dir. Moreover, the TMRCA of the Somali Y16897 T subclade looks relatively like it is the result of a recent founder effect (less than 2k) indicating that it is more of 'clan' lineage than the more distantly diverse E-V32 lineages. However, we will never know until a few more Somali Y16897 BIg Y samples are obtained. My hunch is that clan identities that were formed after the adoption of Islam are more blood based but older clan identities such as Samaale, Darood, Dir etc. might be a mixture of myth and blood.

Lastly, T might not be common among Darood, but it appears to be more common among Hawiye as it is found among Karanles and Hiiraabs.

Abti, overwhelming majority of Habar Jeclo who have taken the tests got the typical Somali E-V32.

At least HALF of Habar Yonis get T.[/b]

This is STRICTLY from father to son, the true "ABTIRIS" aka "perfect name count."

Just from that we know at least half of Habar Yonis and Habar Jeclo have not shared a father in at least thousands of years (even before the formation of the Somali "ethnic" group).

Teeda kale, the irony of Xplaya just dawned on me.

He is the most resistant to the Dir label, yet he comes from the particular community within Isaaq (the Habar Yoonis) with the most T-carriers.

T ONLY shows up in Dir out of the Somali people. For example the Ciise Madoobe of Djibouti carry T at 80%.

I don't know if you understand genetics, but that means a Habar Yonis who caries T (almost half of them) has a more recent father with Ciise Madoobe Direed then they do with Havar Jeclo.

That's the true and perfect "abtiris."

Where are you getting your stats from?

There has been no representative study of Somali clans. However, going by people's matches on 23andme, HY are overwhelmingly T whilst the Habar Jeclo also has several T individuals, possibly all are Maxamed Abokor (Xildiid and Yusuf's subclan), they form the majority of the Habar Jeclos in Togdheer and Saaxil. A Toljeclo, former traditional leaders of the Isaaq clan, clan member also carries haplogroup T on FTDNA. T is quite ubiquitous among Isaaqs in general but a sizeable percentage also belong to E-V32.

It is also not given that T is the genetic marker of Dir even though the limited evidence points that way as it is found at high percentages among those clans that have a connection to Dir. Moreover, the TMRCA of the Somali Y16897 T subclade looks relatively like it is the result of a recent founder effect (less than 2k) indicating that it is more of 'clan' lineage than the more distantly diverse E-V32 lineages. However, we will never know until a few more Somali Y16897 BIg Y samples are obtained. My hunch is that clan identities that were formed after the adoption of Islam are more blood based but older clan identities such as Samaale, Darood, Dir etc. might be a mixture of myth and blood.

Lastly, T might not be common among Darood, but it appears to be more common among Hawiye as it is found among Karanles and Hiiraabs.

Speak on Darood especially Marehan EV32s.