Siyaad barre's legacy and the somali economy

[Timezone]

Koronto(response to other the thread)

You're doing something barre apologists have been doing for ages, giving the man credit for things he doesn't deserve credit for. The somali government, institutions were not built by barre and he dictatorial regime but by the Somali youth league. What he did was take a relatively democratic and peaceful country and turned into a dictatorship and a place where communists ethos were primary.
Somalia under him seems like a great place only because of the predicament we are in today, but we look at it from the perspective of that time then we have a different picture. What you had in Somalia under barre was a economic disparity and nepotism at work, the poor farmers and nomads were living below the poverty line while those who had connections to the government and government jobs were rich and prosperous. It was not a coincidence that those rich people were mostly darood ogadeen, marexaan and dhulbahante and the poor nomads were everyone else.

So I understand that you and your people being well off and from that perspective, you can only see the good in Barre. But if you broaden your perspective and look at it from the perspective of others, you will see the patten of nepotism and preferential treatment that was at work in the barre regime. In fact even during he's control a lot of somali's were forced to go overseas for jobs, because they simply could not work in somalia and a remittance from golf states was a big factor in somali economy. And the army was strong and well equiped only because of the russians aid but at a cost of eating up their socialist and atheist rhetoric. Siyaade barre regime economy was BASED ON aid and donors from others such as russians and arab league, there was no economic foundation to use that the country could easily recover a recession from.

[Timezone]

damnin It won't let me post anymore. (general sql error0

[Koronto91]

My point has always been the same: It makes no sense to claim that MSB was responsible for all of Somalia's ailments. He was one individual, within any given government, there is a consensus, there is a procedure...why would MSB for absolutely no reason decide to go after SNM or SSDF? Was he a mad man?

Why accuse him of master-minding Somalia's demise, while at the same time denying him all the accomplishments achieved during his rule?

[Timezone]

Siyaade barre from what I understand was not an intelligent man, but he was a manipulative man and he knew people and would use clans against one another. He was not a skilled negotiator and totally botched the ogadeen war, in fact if he attacked Ethiopioa when they were in disarray and were going through a coup we would be in a different situation today. But he gave mengistu time and he fired majerteen diplomats and eventually the russians abandoned him and the war was lost. He took us down from a peak.

From 1977 on, he's regime was bent on shutting down and repressing any opposition to him. That was he's main goal, and for you to glorify him is a great disservice to the somali people and the somali nation.

[Koronto91]

LOL. When did I glorify him? I only pointed out the obvious. Besides, I've no interest in praising him since we don't share the same clan. Whatever he was, he is dead, we should leave him alone.

For an adamant supporter of A/Yusuf, I fail to see your obsession with MSB? At least MSB wasn't a lackey for filthy Tigres.

[Voltage]

Koronto I think he despises you for the fact you are NOT Marehan and you see the truth how it really is lol it kills him inside

[Timezone]

Koronto

Don't play coi, you came into that other thread claiming Siyada barre accomplished this and that when the truth is as soon the cold war generated aid and donations stopped coming, the somali economy collapsed and siyad barre had no bargaining power and money to subdue the clans he was oppressing. The coup was neccessary, but it also ultimately failed.

Abdullahi yusuf is a political leader of that era, he only knows brute force, I may not agree with him or the TFG in principle but they are the only option we have now.

[radical]

Timezone waa nin culus

[Koronto91]

Voltage,

Funny how everyone is expected to blindly support his own clansman. We should be mature enough to decide for ourselves who we support and who we reject. I was young during MSB's rule, but I remember having a peaceful country and enjoying my dignity...and that is enough for me to defend his name.

[Timezone]

Koronto

saxiib, ogadeen were also represented in that dictatorship of government. You were the O in MOD, the only time siyaade barre treated your people wrong was when it against he's marexan kinsman. So, you supporting him is no suprise.

[Koronto91]

Timezone,

Let's use our logic here. Although MSB did not personally achieve all the things I listed, it was because of his government that they happened, ma been baa? You accuse him of nepotism, but what about Sharmarke's government and A/Yusuf's? How can you pick & choose?

MSB had many faults, I've no reason to glorify him, all I did was point out what is already common knowledge. His beef with SNM, SSDF, SPM, USC were all with reason. These groups were all Mengistu's creation and were getting paid to cause destablization in Somalia. Was it a surprise then that the government went after these groups? In 1869, General Sherman ordered the mass bombing and burning down of Atlanta during the civil war; was it a moral thing to do? No, but it was deemed a necessity by the U.S. government at the time.

[Timezone]

Koronto

Sxb you have a habit of changing goalposts and I'm getting tired here. If getting donations and aid money from russians and the arab league is your definition of achievements then by all means, MSB achieved all that. But that means nothing if their was no sound economic foundation for the country to move on in times of crisis, the 80's showed how he's government completely failed the people and the country was moving into failure and collapse well before the USC/SPM.

I have no problem admitting he did use some of that aid money for good but majority of it was used to bolster he's clan and oppress others. Siyad barre is darood and closer to me than aideed yet I think he was in some cases worse than caydid even if caydid killed darood in big numbers, at least with caydid he didn't do with the legitimacy of a "government".

As for your 'necessity' argument, I can't help but laugh because that same argument applies today with the TFG and cadullahi yusuf, yet you're incapable of seeing it for whatever reason. Isn't possible that the TFG bringing Ethiopians can be deemed necessary in the future? yes it is.

Anyways, I'm out, let's agree to disagree and hopefully your can see the logic behind my views.

[American-Suufi]

Siyaad Barre and Abdulahi Yusuf are the same and are different at the sametime only due to timing. Neither are/were angels, but both are/were corrupt and cruel dictators from millitary background which is/was common to brutal African dicatators. He was corrupt, never subscribed to any notion of democracy, Islamic governance or the freedom of the individual. At least, during MSB the buck stopped with him which meant as a president, he was totally responsible to the killings, mayhem, destruction, deaths and incarceration of his opponents including murdering Somalia's 10 eminent Islamic scholars. This tarnished his reputation as anti-Islamic and a pro-Marxist leader. While Abdulahi Yusuf is an Ethiopian stooge and in the affairs of Somali politics today, the buck stops with Melez Zenawe. If Yusuf was Somalia's leader during 69-90, he would have achieved similar results like MSB including been a brutal dictator and the designer and of the civil war which is raging Somalia today. He would have laid the foundations too.
In terms of economy it is incomparable. They came to the leadership in different times and situations. Today, people become nostalgic during the Siyaad era as a prosperous era.

My quarter

[Timezone]

[quote="American-Suufi"]Siyaad Barre and Abdulahi Yusuf are the same and are different at the sametime only due to timing. Neither are/were angels, but both are/were corrupt and cruel dictators from millitary background which is/was common to brutal African dicatators. He was corrupt, never subscribed to any notion of democracy, Islamic governance or the freedom of the individual. At least, during MSB the buck stopped with him which meant as a president, he was totally responsible to the killings, mayhem, destruction, deaths and incarceration of his opponents including murdering Somalia's 10 eminent Islamic scholars. This tarnished his reputation as anti-Islamic and a pro-Marxist leader. While Abdulahi Yusuf is an Ethiopian stooge and in the affairs of Somali politics today, the buck stops with Melez Zenawe. If Yusuf was Somalia's leader during 69-90, he would have achieved similar results like MSB including been a brutal dictator and the designer and of the civil war which is raging Somalia today. He would have laid the foundations too.
In terms of economy it is incomparable. They came to the leadership in different times and situations. Today, people become nostalgic during the Siyaad era as a prosperous era.

My quarter[/quote]

Exactly, but these guys want to differentiate between the two and glorify siade barre while taking shots at abdullahi yusuf. That's plain hypocrisy.

[AbdiWahab252]

[quote="Koronto91"] His beef with SNM, SSDF, SPM, USC were all with reason. These groups were all Mengistu's creation and were getting paid to cause destablization in Somalia. Was it a surprise then that the government went after these groups? [/quote]

Koronto:

So the fact that Barre committed massacres against SOmalis, arrested anyone who questioned his rule and ended democratic rule DID NOT destabilize Somalia ?

When you lock up, kill unarmed opposition, then you open up room for men who talk the same language as the brutal government: force.