Answer to Athiesm

[union]

No wonder some people were calling for war with Denmark, illan they were after some hot blonde war booty

[Alphanumeric]

The only thing this thread has likely accomplished was to convince at least one person on the immoral stance Islam has on slavery.


Congrats. I hope you folks are happy.

[IronSheik]

It would have been better if people would have acknowledge the fact that some people love to hold dear to there negative views and thoughts about Islam and love to discuss that. We shouldn't have engaged with them further. I hope this thread has taught us all a lesson

[Rainbows]

The only thing this thread has likely accomplished was to convince at least one person on the immoral stance Islam has on slavery.


Congrats. I hope you folks are happy.

What do you think of this matter?

[TheblueNwhite]

Fascinating discussion.

You can actually grab a slave that has AIDS and have your way with her, no zina committed there however you take away a deadly virus as a grand gift to wifey. Excellent.

[FAH1223]

First of all Islam doesn't have rules for enslavement you can't enslave people who are born free, it has rules for transferring of slaves, if I am a soldier and I kill an enemy soldier then his property belongs to the Muslims who dispose of it as they will, in those days a women and children of the enemy were considered to be his property since the Jews and Christians didn't believe in Women inheriting or even having soul or separate soul to a man.

Second there are no slaves today AND JUST about all the major scholars have declared slavery to be abolished, in the days when there were slaves the slaves and those who owned them acknowledged this relationship (the slaves knew they were slaves and the owners treated them as slaves) - there is no one who acknowledges themselves as a slave today even though they maybe de facto slaves because they are treated as such (i.e. women in sexual slavery, slave/soldier children in various conflicts in the world) it doesn't make them slaves in the de juro sense. Unlike both Christianity and Judaism, Islam has rules for emancipation of slaves in fact Christianity believed in perpetual slavery with regards to the certain groups, such as the black people of West Africa who they sad were the sons of Ham (rather conveniently) and as such were to be in perpetual servitude to the sons of Shem (who were the Christians as they were sons of Abraham through their new covenant) they didn't have rules within their religion on how to free people who were slaves. Slavery is very different in Islam, it doesn't endorse it and seeks to limit/eradicate it, the means of penance is freeing slaves, for example if someone misses a fast then to expiate that sin they should free a slave, I am sure nothing like that exists for breaking the sabbath or sinning in Christianity.

As far as intercourse, you need to provide for a concubine and obviously have consent its almost like having another wife. Emancipation also happens with marriage, but again, slavery is abolished today and there is no need.

Prophet Muhammad, 570--632 AD

. . . yield obedience to my successor, although he may be an Abyssinian slave.

He will not enter paradise who behaveth ill to his slaves. The companions said, "O Apostle of God! Have you not told us, that there will be a great many slaves and orphans amongst your disciples?" He said, "Yes; then be kind to them as your own children, and give them to eat of what you eat yourselves. The slaves that say their prayers are your brothers."

[The first call to prayer at the Quba mosque built by Prophet Muhammad was given in 622 by Bilal -- a black slave freed by the Prophet. The Supreme Court of the United States declared in 1857 that the slave Dred Scott could not sue for his freedom because he was not a person, but property.]

Annemarie Schimmel, Islam: An Introduction

Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is higly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions. -- p. 67

Roger Du Pasquier, Unveiling Islam

To answer this question, it should first be remarked that Islam has tolerated slavery but has never approved of it, and that all its teachings and prescriptions in this regard lead to its alleviation as far as possible in the short term, and, in the longer term, conduce to its progressive suppression. To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war -- when these were not simply massacred -- and the Islamic state would have put itself at a grave disadvantage vis-a-vis its enemies had it not reciprocated to some extent. By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of Muslims to death on the field of battle.

It should be very clearly underlined that the slavery once practiced in the Muslim world cannot be compared to the form it had assumed -- for instance -- in the Roman Empire. Islamic legislation subjected slaveowners to a set of precise obligations, first among which was the slave's right to life, for, according to a hadith, 'Whoever kills his slave shall be killed by us'. In consequence, the murder of a slave was punished like that of a free man.

There are many other hadiths which define Islam's true attitude in this regard. The Prophet said: 'Your slaves are your brethren; therefore whoever has a brother who depends upon him must feed and clothe him in the way he feeds and clothes himself; and should not impose upon him tasks which exceed his capacity; should you ask them to do such things, then you are obliged to help them.' The Sharia takes this injunction, among many others, into account when defining the responsibilities and duties of slaveholders.

There is another teaching which enjoins respect for the human dignity of slaves: 'Let none of you say, "This man, or this woman, is my slave". He must rather say: "This is my man, and this my woman."' Putting into relief the provisional character of social ties and the authority exercised by slaveowners over their slaves, the Prophet said: 'It is true that God has made you their masters, but, had He so wished, He could equally well have made you their slaves.'

To manumit a slave has always been regarded as one of the most meritorious of all acts, and many passages of the Qur'an recommend or even require it, particularly as a means of expiation for serious faults. Traditional legislation lays down the methods of voluntary liberation of slaves by their masters (itq), and there were very many Muslims who observed these, especially at the end of their lives, so as not to die and appear before God without having given full freedom to the human beings placed in their power during their earthly lives.

Additionally, slaves had the ability to enfranchise themselves at their own initiative, without waiting passively for the goodwill of their masters: the procedure known as mukataba allowed them to buy their own freedom with sums which they saved from their work, and which the state frequently augmented with advances -- a measure which the slaveowner had no right to oppose. In contrast to the situation under Roman law, slaves were not deprived of the legal ability to exercise their rights and to appeal to a judge against their masters in all cases of illegal treatment.

Besides domestic slavery, which was generally imbued with a patriarchal character, there also existed a form of military slavery, which was frequently employed by princes in need of recruits, especially for their personal guards. This situation had the effect of conferring an often considerable influence and power on men of servile condition or origin, and some of these became the founders of great and illustrious dynasties such as the Tulunids and Mamlukes of Egypt.

The object of a prosperous commercial sector, which under the Abbasid Empire was often the speciality of non-Muslims, particularly Byzantine and Venetian Christians, and Jews, slavery gradually declined in importance until, at the beginning of the present century, it was confined to a few survivals which have now disappeared entirely. Thanks to the strict traditional controls which have always regulated the practice, it would be difficult to deny that social conditions were remarkably humane during the great periods of Muslim civilization, and that these, moreover, were in conformity with the 'egalitarian' spirit of Islam, which, in a hadith, teaches that 'the blackest of Abyssinians' is superior to most noble of Quraishites, if he has more faith. -- p. 104 - 107

David Hecht, 'Slavery' African Style

Martin Jacques, When China Rules the World

It has been estimated that the slave trade may have reduced Africa's population by up to a half as a result of the forcible export of people combined with deaths on the continent itself. -- p. 41

Ali A. Mazrui, 'Islamo-Fascism,' Western Hegemony and Cross-Cultural Violence

While Islam has been relatively resistant to racism, genocide, and the equivalent of the Inquisition, it has been more ambivalent about slavery. Muslims have both owned and traded in slaves across the centuries. But slavery among Muslims has been almost race-neutral. Slaves could be white, black, brown or other. So could masters. This is in contrast to the trans-Atlantic slave-system which was racially polarized: white masters-black slaves.

Second, slavery in Muslim history allowed for high upward social mobility. Both Muslim Egypt and Muslim India produced slave dynasties.

Howard Zinn, Declarations of Independence

The idea that entered Western consciousness several centuries ago, that black people are less than human, made possible the Atlantic slave trade, during which perhaps 40 million people died. -- p. 1

Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi, Slavery From Islamic and Christian Perspectives

Among all the religions it was only Islam that attacked the very foundations of this evil. -- preface

[FAH1223]

Sunan Abu Dawood

عن سلمة بن المحبق أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قضى في رجل وقع على جارية امرأته إن كان استكرهها فهي حرة وعليه لسيدتها مثلها فإن كانت طاوعته فهي له وعليه لسيدتها مثلها

Narrated Salamah ibn al-Muhabbaq: The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) made a decision about a man who had intercourse with his wife's slave-girl as follows. If he forced her, she is free, and he shall give her mistress a slave-girl similar to her; if she asked him to have intercourse voluntarily, she will belong to him, and he shall give her mistress a slave-girl similar to her.

if you abuse your slave in any shape or form, he or she is set free

In Islam, when you free a slave, you have to be assured that they would survive on their own, this means you have to give them money etc. as a means to survive, so that they aren't captured by someone else and made a slave again.

[union]

^

So according to that hadith you get a new slave if you try to rape your slave?

[FAH1223]

A lot of people here like grandpa and co. were making jokes about taking slaves for sexual pleasuress. This is barbaric. Qur'an and Sunnah shows us the conduct one should have with slaves.

_____

Imam Malik said: In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The [hadd] punishment (lashing or stoning) is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. Al-Muwatta’, 2/734

The Qur'an says:

And force not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [24:33]

The Prohibition of Forcing One's Slave Girl to Commit Zina (fornication)In his Musnad, Al-Hafiz Abu Bakr Ahmad bin `Amr bin `Abd Al-Khaliq Al-Bazzar, may Allah have mercy on him, recorded that Az-Zuhri said, "`Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul had a slave-girl whose name was Mu`adhah, whom he forced into prostitution. When Islam came, the Ayah

[وَلاَ تُكْرِهُواْ فَتَيَـتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَآءِ]

(And force not your slave-girls to prostitution...) was revealed.'' Al-A`mash narrated from Abu Sufyan that Jabir said concerning this Ayah, "This was revealed about a slave-girl belonging to `Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul whose name was Musaykah. He used to force her to commit immoral actions, but there was nothing wrong with her and she refused. Then Allah revealed this Ayah:

[وَلاَ تُكْرِهُواْ فَتَيَـتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَآءِ]

(And force not your slave-girls to prostitution,) until His saying;

[وَمَن يُكْرِههُنَّ فِإِنَّ اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)'' An-Nasa'i also recorded something similar. Muqatil bin Hayyan said, "I heard -- and Allah knows best -- that this Ayah was revealed about two men who used to force two slave-girls of theirs (into prostitution). One of them was called Musaykah who belonged to [the Ansari], and Umaymah the mother of Musaykah belonged to `Abdullah bin Ubayy. Mu`adhah and Arwa were in the same situation. Then Musaykah and her mother came to the Prophet and told him about that. Then Allah revealed:

[وَلاَ تُكْرِهُواْ فَتَيَـتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَآءِ]

(And force not your slave-girls to prostitution), meaning Zina.

[إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّناً]

(if they desire chastity,) means, if they want to be chaste, which is the case with the majority of slave-girls.

[لِّتَبْتَغُواْ عَرَضَ الْحَيَوةِ الدُّنْيَا]

(in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life.) meaning, from the money they earn and their children. The Messenger of Allah forbade the money earned by the cupper, the prostitute and the fortune-teller. According to another report:

«مَهْرُ الْبَغِيِّ خَبِيثٌ وَكَسْبُ الْحَجَّامِ خَبِيثٌ، وَثَمَنُ الْكَلْبِ خَبِيثٌ»

(The earnings of a prostitute are evil, the earnings of a cupper are evil, and the price of a dog is evil.)

[وَمَن يُكْرِههُنَّ فِإِنَّ اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) meaning, towards them, as has already been stated in the Hadith narrated from Jabir. Ibn Abi Talhah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "If you do that, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful, and their sin will be on the one who forced them to do that.'' This was also the view of Mujahid, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Al-A`mash and Qatadah. After explaining these rulings in detail, Allah says:

[وَلَقَدْ أَنْزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكُمْ ءَايَـتٍ مُّبَيِّنَـتٍ]

(And indeed We have sent down for you Ayat that make things plain,) meaning, in the Qur'an there are Ayat which are clear and explain matters in detail.

[وَمَثَلاً مِّنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ]

(and the example of those who passed away before you,) means, reports about the nations of the past and what happened to them when they went against the commandments of Allah, as Allah says:

[فَجَعَلْنَـهُمْ سَلَفاً وَمَثَلاً لِّلاٌّخِرِينَ ]

(And We made them a precedent, and an example to later generations.) [43:56]; We made them a lesson, i.e., a rebuke for committing sin and forbidden deeds.

[لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ]

(for those who have Taqwa. ) meaning, for those who remember and fear Allah.

Thirdly, the Qur'an and prophet Muhammad repeatedly instructed the Muslims not only to refrain from harming their slaves, but also to treat them well. And you're trying to argue that Muslim men are allowed to rape their slaves?

Hadiths on the treatment of slaves:

Ali reported that the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were: "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves! [Bukhari]

"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them." [Bukhari]

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created. [Bukhari]

Sallam ibn 'Amr reported from one of the Companions of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Your slaves are your brothers, so treat him well. Ask for their help in what is too much for you and help them in what is too much for them." [Bukhari]

From the last sermon: "And your slaves! See that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them what you yourself wear. And if they commit a mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented!"

And again from the Qur'an:

"Serve God, and join not any partners with Him ; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), And what your right hands possess [i.e. slaves] : for God loveth not the arrogant, the “vainglorious" [4:36]

Islam prohibits mistreatment of slaves - it is ludicrous to argue that it would permit men to rape their slaves, an act worse than simple mistreatment.

[FAH1223]

^

So according to that hadith you get a new slave if you try to rape your slave?

you abuse your slave, they're free that's the whole point

here is another hadith dealing with this same thing in Sunan Abu Dawood

Narrated An-Nu'man ibn Bashir: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: about a man who had (unlawful) intercourse with his wife's slave girl: If she made her lawful for him, he will be flogged one hundred lashes; if she did not make her lawful for him, I shall stone him.

those taken into slavery were cared after by their masters just like family, they were ordered to eat what they ate and wear what they wore.

you cannot force yourself upon a captive woman immediately after a battle like everyone here is trying to imply

anyway WE LIVE IN A DIFFERENT TIME AND SLAVERY HAS BEEN ABOLISHED AND IT HAS BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BY ANY CREDIBLE SCHOLAR OUT THERE. We do need to confront the undeground shid that is going on but the point is Islam came at a time slavery was an institution and it steadily declined

[union]

^

Is it OK to ever force yourself on a slave?

[grandpakhalif]

Fah what are you sources? Who knows if you brought me daceef hadiths or mawduc Probably Suhaib Webb.



My Sources are the likes Sheikhul Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmuc Fatawa Volume 16.

[FAH1223]

grandpa, my sources are right there. Bukhari and a hadith from Dawood.

Slavery is no longer relevant as it has been abolished and read my first post. You cannot enslave a free person as you hinted in previous posts.

^

Is it OK to ever force yourself on a slave?

Never. I showed another hadith. They are like wives,t hough not wives.

Meaning, they have rights like that of wives.

As for who is her master, that's up to the Ameer who he gives the slaves to.

And the owner can get her married of to someone who proposes to her.

People always think about intimacy between slaves, it seems. It's understandable, but Islam has given many rights to slaves, way beyond just intimacy. We should consider them all.

However, there is So much discussion over an issue that has no relevance any longer.

Slavery was a huge issue at the time Islam came to Arabia. Islam tried to abolish slavery.

Slavery has been abolished world wide. Where it exists, it is illegal. So if it exists somewhere, then the issue is not "oh, can we have sex with the slave-girls"; the issue becomes, "this is illegal, it must be abolished and the slave-owners punished".

[TheblueNwhite]

Grandpa are you not scared of contracting sexually transmitted diseases? or you're going to take your newly acquired slave to the nearest Planned Parenthood health center to have her check out before you force yourself on her? what's your game plan hommie?

[FAH1223]

Grandpa,

It is rare nowadays to find slaves in the shar’i sense in which it is permissible to be intimate with them etc. That is because most of the Muslims have long since given up the obligation of jihad for the sake of Allaah, in addition to their position of weakness and humiliation before their kaafir enemies, so that many of the majority-Muslim nations have signed the protocol that expressly forbids slavery and strives to put an end to it, which was agreed upon in the United Nations in 1953.

Based on that we must be very careful in examining any case where people are bought and sold as slaves, and we must also beware of the misinterpretation of the word amah (pl. imaa’) (= slave woman) which some new Muslims understand to mean that enslavement takes place simply by paying the woman some money and agreeing to have intercourse with her. This is like prostitution which is now widespread in some immoral places, night clubs and telephone sex services.

We ask Allaah to help us and you to be patient with regard to matters of our religion and to protect us from falling into evil.

And Allaah knows best.

From here - http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/26067/slavery