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Honestly Sis, That's the lazy way to go about it. The real way is it is waajib upon ALL of us to know the Religion and SEEK KNOWLEDGE. Its simply not like a career path where You can pursue or not pursue. Allah swt said "Fa'lam annahu Laa Ilaaha Ilallah Wa staghfir Li Thembik". LEARN there is no God but Allah and seek forgiveness for Your sins. Al Bukhaari one of the greatest scholars of all time said "The path to knowledge comes before action or speak". There is Ilm Al Fareedah (Compulsory knowledge) That We all must know i.e Tawheed, Aqeeda, Conditions of Salaah, Pillars of Sallah, Destroyers of Salaah, Tahaara (Purification) Wudu, etc. This knowledge is Fard (Obligatory). You have Ilm Al Kifaayah Which is not obligatory and this is a lot of the advanced Fiqh issues, and other types of knowledge that are extra. Even in this type of knowledge as Muslims We must be greedy in not just seeking the bare minimum but wanting to learn more.
Case in point this issue of the OP, these are very basic principles it shouldn't be a "Debate" but issues that We have very firm understanding and grasp on which means proof from Quran, Sunnah. The sad thing is say We wanna discuss macroeconomics or trade We will use sources from different scholars and texts and have "Educated discussions". When We discuss matters of Religion its just a "Debate". This shows what We really prioritize and have respect for and what We don't. May Allah save us all.
I agree Murux. The point of my post was that there will always be these differences in the Muslim world. The average Muslim is aware of the basic foundation of their religion, and it's at that level where this submission is established with Allah. Sometimes, it's best to leave the individual with how they practice and submit to their God.
One thing I do agree with those who are against Wahhabism is the need for Muslims to reclaim their place in science, research and overall contribution to the advancement of the world. There is where I think our scholars should focus on.
I guess We're supposed to just forget Quran and Hadeeth, its just old. After all We are in 2015.
I don't think that is the issue saaxib. I think you are utterly wrong. No one, not even Shias want to forget the Quran. The Hadith is another issue because there are thousands of them (some of them, I am told, contradict each other). The problems are 1) context; under what circumstances? uurisprudence/ precedents 2) Interpretations; whose interpretation of available literature is the right one?.
As I see it, from a somali context, both context and interpretations are salafi/wahabi bound nowadays.
Sorry Lamagoodle, but when you try to change the understanding of the Quran that all of the scholars have agreed upon for 1400 years, cause they want to reform it and know better today. You'll see people saying things, like hijab isn't really wajib, let's do away with verses of cutting of hands, sure you don't have to be Muslim, kufr is just fine you'll go to heaven, qaniisnimo is ok. This isn't even a salafi/wahabi bound folks are literally trying to change the Quran in their quest for appeasement and attempting to be the Martin Luther of Islam. This is kufr. There is no way around that sxb.
Murax, not bad. But it all boils to this saaxib; Why do you mind what others do? It is you Murax who will either go to hell or heaven depending on your deeds; not on the deeds of others. I think it is simple; mind your own business and leave what others do to Allah. This is what distinguishes wahabism/salafism from mainstream islam. Salafism/wahabism focus on what others do. Superficial things like dress code, sex etc instead of individual submission.
I guess We're supposed to just forget Quran and Hadeeth, its just old. After all We are in 2015.
I don't think that is the issue saaxib. I think you are utterly wrong. No one, not even Shias want to forget the Quran. The Hadith is another issue because there are thousands of them (some of them, I am told, contradict each other). The problems are 1) context; under what circumstances? uurisprudence/ precedents 2) Interpretations; whose interpretation of available literature is the right one?.
As I see it, from a somali context, both context and interpretations are salafi/wahabi bound nowadays.
Sorry Lamagoodle, but when you try to change the understanding of the Quran that all of the scholars have agreed upon for 1400 years, cause they want to reform it and know better today. You'll see people saying things, like hijab isn't really wajib, let's do away with verses of cutting of hands, sure you don't have to be Muslim, kufr is just fine you'll go to heaven, qaniisnimo is ok. This isn't even a salafi/wahabi bound folks are literally trying to change the Quran in their quest for appeasement and attempting to be the Martin Luther of Islam. This is kufr. There is no way around that sxb.
Shirib, I am not well versed in islamic theology but from what I understand no one tries to change the Quran. Everything you mentioned concern societal dynamics/interactions. The issue of Hijabi (even the word itself) is subject to interpretation. Cutting hands? I think the argument is not the punishment itself but rather the underlying reasons of the crime/and how/who provides the punishment. Who is kufr or who is not, is a matter for the almighty. The problem is those who judge people. It becomes a travesty.
I wish everyone was like you but they are not. The only way hijab is subject to interpretation is that you claim now that we've been wrong for 1400 years and you are better knowing today. There are people who actually say, get rid of the ayah all together, never ever to be done, we've gone past that. How is that not kufr? I'm not calling them a kaafir btw, i am saying their actions constitute kufr. There is a difference. I will agree with you that who is going to hell and who is going to heaven is up to Allah and we shouldn't make takfiir on individuals.
The funniest thing about this all is that wahabism started out from the idea that Islam needs reform and let's ignore all the scholars because we are better to interpret the Quran. Now we have similar people who are saying the same thing except going the exact opposite way.
Lamagoodle wrote:Murax, not bad. But it all boils to this saaxib; Why do you mind what others do? It is you Murax who will either go to hell or heaven depending on your deeds; not on the deeds of others. I think it is simple; mind your own business and leave what others do to Allah. This is what distinguishes wahabism/salafism from mainstream islam. Salafism/wahabism focus on what others do. Superficial things like dress code, sex etc instead of individual submission.
As I said earlier, remaining silent When You see something is against the Deen.
“Why do not the Rabbaniyyun and the Ahbar forbid them from uttering sinful words and from eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been performing.” Surah Al Maaeda
"Indeed, Qarun was from the people of Moses, but he tyrannized them. And We gave him of treasures whose keys would burden a band of strong men; thereupon his people said to him, "Do not exult. Indeed, Allah does not like the exultant.
"But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafter; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. And do good as Allah has done good to you. And desire not corruption in the land. Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters." Surah Al Qassas
Here Allah gave a example Where Allah questioned why the Rabbis, Priests why they did not forbid the people who uttered sinful words and ate illegal things.
In the second Ayah, You saw How some of the children of Israel were doing their duty and reproaching Qaruun. Stating the Haqq, and enjoining good, forbidding evil is a crucial part of the Religion:
"Verily You are the best raised in Mandkind. You enjoin what is good, forbid what is evil and perform the prayers".
So You're thing about just shutting up and looking the other way at evil, wrong is not from this Deen one bit.
Murax, the verses/hadith that you provided above, do not explicitly support your argument saaxib. That is where interpretation is important. My theses are these a) you are under your own management. You will not go to hell/heaven because others did something good/bad b)instead of speaking to/about others, you should seek submission for yourself. c) do not force unto others what you think is right. Truism, maxims and dogma are features of all religions. If you think that yours is the true one, you should adopt a methodology to convince others.
I wish everyone was like you but they are not. The only way hijab is subject to interpretation is that you claim now that we've been wrong for 1400 years and you are better knowing today. There are people who actually say, get rid of the ayah all together, never ever to be done, we've gone past that. How is that not kufr? I'm not calling them a kaafir btw, i am saying their actions constitute kufr. There is a difference. I will agree with you that who is going to hell and who is going to heaven is up to Allah and we shouldn't make takfiir on individuals.
The funniest thing about this all is that wahabism started out from the idea that Islam needs reform and let's ignore all the scholars because we are better to interpret the Quran. Now we have similar people who are saying the same thing except going the exact opposite way.
Shirib saaxib; it all adds to this; without the message of wahabism/salafism and its onset on our people, we would never have discussed these issues. Wahabism/Salafism is a cult. It has found its way into the somali community. It is largely influenced by culture rather than creed. It has become the opium of our people because of petrodollars. So, in my opinion, there is no need for reformation. Rather, there is a need to fight wahabism/salafism. Almost all our sheikhs are wahabis today. We have many wahabi students even on these boards who think wahabism= islam.
Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn Al-Musayyib said that his father Al-Musayyib said, "When Abu Talib was dying, the Prophet went to him and found Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah present. The Prophet said,
(O uncle! Say, `La ilaha illa-llah,' a word concerning which I will plea for you with Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored.) Abu Jahl and `Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah said, `O Abu Talib! Would you leave the religion of Abdul-Muttalib' Abu Talib said, `Rather, I will remain on the religion of Abdul-Muttalib.' The Prophet said,
«لَأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْك»
(I will invoke Allah for forgiveness for you, as long as I am not prohibited from doing so.) This verse was revealed,
(It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah's forgiveness for the Mushrikin, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire.) Concerning Abu Talib, this Ayah was revealed,
(Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills) ﴿28:56﴾.'' This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. Ibn Jarir recorded that Sulayman bin Buraydah said that his father said, "When the Prophet came to Makkah, he went to a grave, sat next to it, started talking and then stood up with tears in his eyes. We said, `O Allah's Messenger! We saw what you did.' He said,
(I asked my Lord for permission to visit the grave of my mother and He gave me permission. I asked for His permission to invoke Him for forgiveness for her, but He did not give me permission.) We never saw him more tearful than on that day.''' Al-`Awfi narrated from Ibn `Abbas about Allah's statement,
(It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah's forgiveness for the Mushrikin) "The Prophet wanted to invoke Allah for forgiveness for his mother, but Allah did not allow him. The Prophet said,
«إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ خَلِيلَ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلّم قَدِ اسْتَغْفَرَ لِأَبِيه»
(Ibrahim, Allah's Khalil, invoked Allah for his father.) Allah revealed,
(And Ibrahim's invoking (of Allah) for his father's forgiveness was only because of a promise he ﴿Ibrahim﴾ had made to him (his father)). '' `Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated that Ibn `Abbas commented on this Ayah, "They used to invoke Allah for them (pagans) until this Ayah was revealed. They then refrained from invoking Allah to forgive the dead among them, but were not stopped from invoking Allah for the living among them until they die. Allah sent this Ayah,
﴿وَمَا كَانَ اسْتِغْفَارُ إِبْرَهِيمَ لاًّبِيهِ﴾
(And Ibrahim's invoking (of Allah) for his father's forgiveness was only...) ﴿9:114﴾.'' Allah said next,
(But when it became clear to him ﴿Ibrahim﴾ that he (his father) is an enemy of Allah, he dissociated himself from him) ﴿9:114﴾. Ibn `Abbas commented, "Ibrahim kept asking Allah to forgive his father until he died, when he realized that he died as an enemy to Allah, he disassociated himself from him.'' In another narration, he said, "When his father died he realized that he died as an enemy of Allah.'' Similar was said by Mujahid, Ad-Dahhak, Qatadah and several others. `Ubayd bin `Umayr and Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "Ibrahim will disown his father on the Day of Resurrection, but he will meet his father and see dust and fatigue on his face. He will say, `O Ibrahim! I disobeyed you, but today, I will not disobey you.' Ibrahim will say, `O Lord! You promised me that You will not disgrace me on the Day they are resurrected. What more disgrace than witnessing my father being disgraced' He will be told, `Look behind you,' where he will see a bloody hyena -- for his father will have been transformed into that -- and it will be dragged from its feet and thrown in the Fire.''' Allah's statement,
﴿إِنَّ إِبْرَهِيمَ لأَوَّاهٌ حَلِيمٌ﴾
(Verily, Ibrahim was Awwah and was forbearing.) means, he invoked Allah always, according to `Abdullah bin Mas`ud. Several narrations report this from Ibn Mas`ud. It was also said that, `Awwah', means, `who invokes Allah with humility', `merciful', `who believes with certainty', `who praises (Allah)', and so forth.
(115. And Allah will never lead a people astray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. Verily, Allah is the All-Knower of everything.) (116. Indeed to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, He gives life and He causes death. And besides Allah you have neither any protector nor any helper.)
Abu Taalib, the paternal uncle of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) died, and he instructed ‘Ali to bury him, but the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did not attend his funeral or his burial, even though Abu Taalib’s support and defence of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was well known, and even though the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) felt a great deal of compassion and mercy towards him. Nothing stopped him from doing that except the fact that Abu Taalib died in a state of kufr. In fact the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “I shall certainly pray for forgiveness for you so long as I am not forbidden to do so.” Then the words were revealed (interpretation of the meaning): “It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah’s forgiveness for the Mushrikoon, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in a state of disbelief)” [al-Tawbah 9:113] and: “Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like,” [al-Qasas 28:56].
Abu Dawood (3214) and al-Nasaa’i (2006) narrated that ‘Ali said: I said to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him): Your paternal uncle, the misguided old man, has died. He said: “Go and bury your father.”
The average Muslim is aware of the basic foundation of their religion, and it's at that level where this submission is established with Allah. Sometimes, it's best to leave the individual with how they practice and submit to their God.
