the role of saints in Islam

[Alphanumeric]

What kind of miracles, if you may elaborate?

[Shirib]

People use dead saints as intermediaries between themselves and Allah. This is shirk no?

[Alphanumeric]

People use dead saints as intermediaries between themselves and Allah. This is shirk no?

Is this intended for me?

[Shirib]

People use dead saints as intermediaries between themselves and Allah. This is shirk no?

Is this intended for me?

no its for PO

but feel free to answer if u please

[Alphanumeric]

I'd rather not. I wouldn't want to derail the thread.

To answer the question of what is a wali, I always felt it was someone who worships Allah with utmost sincerity, in secret, keeping his ibadah away from the eyes of others. Someone who keeps away from all sin, at all times. Whose speech and actions are solely intended to please Allah. Whose intentions are pure, in all circumstances. He/she doesn't seek fame, but runs from it. Wealth and worldly possession mean nothing, unless they aid in the da'wah. Who is of those Allah labels as "ahlu-dhikr" and "mu'minoon". He/she is ready to defend the deen, in all occasions, at all costs. And when this person makes dua', it is answered.

That's my understanding.

[Saraxnow]

I'd rather not. I wouldn't want to derail the thread.

To answer the question of what is a wali, I always felt it was someone who worships Allah with utmost sincerity, in secret, keeping his ibadah away from the eyes of others. Someone who keeps away from all sin, at all times. Whose speech and actions are solely intended to please Allah. Whose intentions are pure, in all circumstances. He/she doesn't seek fame, but runs from it. Wealth and worldly possession mean nothing, unless they aid in the da'wah. Who is of those Allah labels as "ahlu-dhikr" and "mu'minoon". He/she is ready to defend the deen, in all occasions, at all costs. And when this person makes dua', it is answered.

That's my understanding.

Exactly my thoughts

[SultanOrder]

Any supernatural event, is considered a miracle.




Shirib, depends on the person and what they view as the limits of the intermediaries.

[Alphanumeric]

PO, forgive my ignorance on this subject. I've never been taught any of this before. What would be considered a "supernatural event"?

[SultanOrder]

Alpha your definition is spot on. Miracle, anything that is out of the ordinary or not explainable by the laws of science. Don't act dumb, you know the prophets performed miracles. Just the same, it may occur with the wali's behest and dua's, or he may be totally inaware of it.

[Alphanumeric]

So miracles, even to the level of anbiyah. Understood.

[SultanOrder]

I fail to understand that statement, "to the level of Anbiyyah". It is true that Anbiyya have done Mu'jizo's, but awliya don't do mu'jizo, they do what is termed Karama. The difference is that Mu'jizo are an active proof of a nabi's truth and message (such as the quran), while a karama is passive result of a Wali's connection to Allah it does not for example proof of Islam. A wali's karama is actually a mu'jizo of the Nabi he follows, therefore it does not put them at the rank of Nabuwa. And if a "wali's" karama is proved false, it does not affect the truth of Islam.
A karama could be as simple as wali knowing your name in the middle of a crowd and seeing you for the first time, it could be as simple as someone's Imaan returning just by looking at a wali's face.

[Alphanumeric]

How can it be proven false? Are there particular criteria?

[SultanOrder]

Well for example some one can do supernatural things with the use of magic, or jin. If this person is using these occurrences as validity for a claim of sainthood, and it is shown that it is nothing more than magic or jin, it would be proven false. And their claim would also lose legitimacy.

[Alphanumeric]

My assumption of a wali was that he/she would never claim such a thing, and would run away from any accusation. How does this correlate with what you are saying?

[SultanOrder]

My dear boy you have assumed that your definition is definite.
It may so happen that wali might be persecuted, and Allah will want him out of that situation, it may happen that muslimiin are in such a terrible situation and the wali prays for their safety and they are give succor, it may happen that he may make a dua for a sick person at behest of people and that person is cured, it may happen that allah shall command him to reveal himself to the people for a purpose, it may also happen that a wali may not even know the truth of his own status with Allah. But in general yes, most wali's wish nothing more than obscurity, but being known may also be a test and purification for them by Allah. Do not make such limitations, for your lord is not limited, and his plans are not limited.