Who was at fault, Muawiyah or Ali?

[sahal80]

The right was with imam ali but he has been betrayed by the sahabah he also he commited political mistakes that his enemy used it for their hidden agenda.
During the pre-islamic era called al jahliya the quraish clan has been splitted into two branches: the religious subclan(the imams) banu hashim and the warrior class subclan(the political leaders) bani umayyah. When the prophet appeared his uncle abu talib was the imam, he let him alone but his uncle abu jahal had stood with the political quraish leader abu sufyan the father of muawiya againist the prophet. When finally quraish got defeated, the prophet had some respect for reer bani ummaya, he married their daughter, he let abu sufyan leading the battles and his son muawiyah as the writer of the al wahyi. Things were this way during umar and abubakar times but the tribalism has came back with the regime of uthman. The most of provincial governors(al wulaat) were from his subclan bani ummayah and subsequently they dominated the army and the local authorities. Now the imam ali was traying to diminish them but how could he remove such a long estalished authority at once? Nonethless, the first thing he did was eliminating banu umaya governors such as muawiya of sham(greater syrian including lebanon,jordan and falastin) amar bin aas of ifriqiya(egypt and noth africa) and traying to appoint others in their places. Muawiya rejected his elimination by announcing that imam ali can't be trusted before he takes reveng on othmans blood. Muawiya has managed keeping the governors and bani umayah in his side during this hesistance of imam ali wich inerrupted his leadership. The imam ali was fearing from the khawirij, he also was fearing for more divisions between the muslims so he just left the khawarij alone. Muawiya continued his revenge campaign strategy againist imam ali and that al khawarij has participated in his army. The imam has been betrayed in arabia but the iraqs have invited him and then let him down as the imam said or it recorded in nahj al balaggah. This is why the shia cray saying labbayk yaa ali but that is too late.

[Coldoon]

What was the need of demoting Muawiyah and Amr from the governorship? Clearly, if they didn't do anything wrong to begin with, why would Ali remove them from their posts for simply being from the same clan? Wouldn't that make Ali himself a tribalist, favoring one clan over another?

Also, the Shia, where did they fit into all of these Ali-Muawiyah-Kharijite differences? Seems like all three of them didn't like each other, Muawiyah and Ali were enemies. Muawiyah and Kharijites were enemies. Ali and Kharijites were enemies. So, that leaves the Shia. How did they came into existence?

[Twist]

The right was with imam ali but he has been betrayed by the sahabah he also he commited political mistakes that his enemy used it for their hidden agenda.
During the pre-islamic era called al jahliya the quraish clan has been splitted into two branches: the religious subclan(the imams) banu hashim and the warrior class subclan(the political leaders) bani umayyah. When the prophet appeared his uncle abu talib was the imam, he let him alone but his uncle abu jahal had stood with the political quraish leader abu sufyan the father of muawiya againist the prophet. When finally quraish got defeated, the prophet had some respect for reer bani ummaya, he married their daughter, he let abu sufyan leading the battles and his son muawiyah as the writer of the al wahyi. Things were this way during umar and abubakar times but the tribalism has came back with the regime of uthman. The most of provincial governors(al wulaat) were from his subclan bani ummayah and subsequently they dominated the army and the local authorities. Now the imam ali was traying to diminish them but how could he remove such a long estalished authority at once? Nonethless, the first thing he did was eliminating banu umaya governors such as muawiya of sham(greater syrian including lebanon,jordan and falastin) amar bin aas of ifriqiya(egypt and noth africa) and traying to appoint others in their places. Muawiya rejected his elimination by announcing that imam ali can't be trusted before he takes reveng on othmans blood. Muawiya has managed keeping the governors and bani umayah in his side during this hesistance of imam ali wich inerrupted his leadership. The imam ali was fearing from the khawirij, he also was fearing for more divisions between the muslims so he just left the khawarij alone. Muawiya continued his revenge campaign strategy againist imam ali and that al khawarij has participated in his army. The imam has been betrayed in arabia but the iraqs have invited him and then let him down as the imam said or it recorded in nahj al balaggah. This is why the shia cray saying labbayk yaa ali but that is too late.

I am not well-learned about such history so thanks guys for this wonderful discussion but sahal80, have you got difficulty in writing try & cry? What on earth is this tray & cray you always write instead of try & cry, mate?

Waxaanba ku dhowaaday in Google-gareeyo just to see other meanings of those words. lol

[Coldoon]

Lol @ Twist.

[sahal80]

What was the need of demoting Muawiyah and Amr from the governorship? Clearly, if they didn't do anything wrong to begin with, why would Ali remove them from their posts for simply being from the same clan? Wouldn't that make Ali himself a tribalist, favoring one clan over another?

Also, the Shia, where did they fit into all of these Ali-Muawiyah-Kharijite differences? Seems like all three of them didn't like each other, Muawiyah and Ali were enemies. Muawiyah and Kharijites were enemies. Ali and Kharijites were enemies. So, that leaves the Shia. How did they came into existence?

politically it wasn't a good suggestion as they interrupted his leadership earlier but the imam was traying to diminish bani ummaya power rather than eliminating them. He should let muawaya alone and start with persia, africa and arabia. That was the reason of the betrayers claiming that muawiya already rules the muslim world and that the imam should give up and when the khawarij lastly killed him they accepted muawiyyah as caam al jamaaca( unanimously decision).
Al khawarij were againist uthman for these reasons, they first supported imam ali but as the fitnah extended longer they trayed to get rid both of them by suggesting killing them at once. Unfurtunatlly they killed the imam and muawiya has secaped that night.
If you want to understand how ala muawiya got there read about the wars of yazid bin muawiya, marwan ibnu hakam, his son abdi malik bin marwan and their last wars in arabia againist the revolution of zubair ibnu al awam the last general that was serving ala bait.
Shia had continued with the house of ahlu al bait.

Twist
I will edit next time.

[grandpakhalif]

It's best to silent when it comes to conflict between Sahaba (ra)

[Coldoon]

Good looking out Sahal. Learned a lot with your responses. Inshaallah, I'll continue looking into that time of history.

[sahal80]

Good looking out Sahal. Learned a lot with your responses. Inshaallah, I'll continue looking into that time of history.

thanks brother. I'm fit that is all I got I like to post more pics but the avatar is not accepting them. Evry day I tray with 10 to the point I was all the time at this site in the last two days.

[Oba]

@ Sahals reply

[sahal80]

@ Sahals reply

what was wrong whit it? I thought I got a compliment

[Oba]

sxb you mistunderstood what he meant

[sahal80]

sxb you mistunderstood what he meant

[Coldoon]

sxb you mistunderstood what he meant

And...what did I meant?

Sahal, don't let him fool you. I sincerely learned something with your responses. I'll of course continue to look in to it to verify it for myself.

[AhlulbaytSoldier]

Amiirul mumineen Ali r.a was right, while rebel leader Muawiya was wrong

I would fight Muawiya.


Did Allah's messenger peace be upon him & his family not say: Allah and His Messenger loves Amiir Ali r.a and Amiir Ali r.a loves them.

[sahal80]

sxb you mistunderstood what he meant

And...what did I meant?

Sahal, don't let him fool you. I sincerely learned something with your responses. I'll of course continue to look in to it to verify it for myself.

I know it was him who hasn't got a clue. I was avoiding more misunderstanding.