Who was at fault, Muawiyah or Ali?

[Leftist]

In order to understand what happened between Ali and Mucaawiya, it's important to understand the events that led up to Muslim-on-Muslim bloodshed that continues to this day:

- Umar bin Khattab, one of history's greatest leaders, fails to establish a security force for Madeenah, let alone a personal bodyguard. This failure will have severe consequences, not only for him, but for the Muslim ummah as a whole.

- Umar is assassinated by a vengeful Persian and Uthman is elected Caliph. Unlike Umar, who governed through sheer force of his haybad, charisma, and personal authority, Uthman was more of a gentle, miskeen type. He was surrounded by his relatives who became his chief advisers. The perception(regardless of whether it's accurate or not) is that Bani Umayah are milking the Khilaafah for their benefit: getting appointed to high positions, embezzling funds from the Baytul Maal, influencing Uthman.

- Because of that perception(accurate or not), now you've got a brewing rebellion on your hands, and angry rebels from Egypt, Kufa, and Basra are headed to Madeenah taking advantage of the Hajj season.

- They walk into Madeenah unopposed because guess what: There is no security force to protect the city, it's inhabitants, and the Caliph.

- Uthman is besieged in his home. No food or water gets in or out. He pleads with them; the rebels have one demand : resign, or else. Uthman refuses; and he's murdered, raximahullah, in front of his wives and kids.

- The rebels are now in full control in Madeenah. Ali is chosen be the next Caliph but there's a huge caveat: the rebels force people to pledge allegiance to Ali with drawn swords, which has the effect of invalidating Ali's authority in the eyes of many. "we were forced to give you baycah" is the excuse/rationale of Talhah, Zubayr and other high-ranking companions.

- Aisha, Talha, Zubair organise an army dedicated to hunting down and extrajudicially killing any member of the rebel army that besieged Uthman. Even if you merely voiced support for the rebel army, you're about to get got by the ATZ army. Mucaawiya in Shaam, ever the cunning strategist, inflames the situation further by displaying the bloody qamees of Uthman on friday prayer in front of thousands; people cry, wail, and howl for revenge. Now, he has the entirety of Shaam and it's wealth at his disposal as he makes his power-play.

- The shit is now fully stirred and just about to officially pop off and hit the fan. A powerful mix of Anger, Revenge, Qabyaalad, & Power-Lust.

- And it hits the fan with the Battle of the Camel and the Battle of Sifin. Thousands of the most amazing humans to have ever lived are dead and wounded. Swords that once fought against Byzantine and Sassan are now killing each other. Sad tragedy that could've been prevented, but human nature sets it's own course.

- How ugly did things get? Try this: summary execution at the mere whiff of suspicion that you're with "the other side". Not once or twice but many times over: Husayn vs Yazid. Ibn Zubair vs Mukhtar. Ibn Zubair vs Abel-Malik. The Abbasid pogrom against anybody with Ummayad blood. The countless of Ahlul Bayt-led rebellions against the Abbasid to claim the crown, their 'inherent right to rule'.

- Because some scholars do not want to admit that Muslims, especially the Sahaba, can be equally capable of ruthless bloodshed as non-Muslims, they did what they often do: assign blame elsewhere with the convenient "Yahooda baa ka dambaysa. They picked one of the leaders of rebellion named Abdullah bin Sabai and decided that he was a Zionist and that the whole rebellion against Uthman was a Zionist-led initiative to destroy Islam from within. Oh yeah, conspiracy theories to explain away uncomfortable facts.

- What's the takeaway from all this history? Unlike the romanticized utopia preached by some scholars, we have to understand the Saxaaba, as great as they were, were also fully human. When you hear about the barbarity of the various Somali jabhads in the late 80's/early 90's, everything they did, was also done within years of the Rasool's death, by the Saxaaba and the Taabiceen. And just as the Sahaba ascended to the highest levels of taqwa & piety, it's also very possible for them to descend to barbarity & bloodshed. May Allah have mercy on them all, and us as well.

- And to think all of this could've (possibly) been avoided by establishing a strong security force to protect Madeenah. Umar wouldn't have been assassinated, giving more time for the young empire to strengthen and mature. The rebellion against Uthman would've been quelled and the leaders put on trial. It would have been a wake-up call for Uthman to change his qaraabo-leaning nature. He would have probably had his relatives, including Mucaawiya in Shaam, resign so as to avoid any further discontent. No Mucaawiya = No rival to Ali = No civil war.

[Oba]

Good looking out Sahal. Learned a lot with your responses. Inshaallah, I'll continue looking into that time of history.

thanks brother. I'm fit that is all I got I like to post more pics but the avatar is not accepting them. Evry day I tray with 10 to the point I was all the time at this site in the last two days.

[Twist]

Good looking out Sahal. Learned a lot with your responses. Inshaallah, I'll continue looking into that time of history.

thanks brother. I'm fit that is all I got I like to post more pics but the avatar is not accepting them. Evry day I tray with 10 to the point I was all the time at this site in the last two days.

Ma anaa waalan or sahal's response has nothing to do with Coldoon's remark? WTH!

[AhlulbaytSoldier]

The intention of Aisha, Zubair and Talha were good may Allah bless them. And the intention of Alli r.a was more better may Allah bless him. Both wanted to capture the killers but they disagreed the timing.
As for Muawiya he had no right to rebel or think even about caliphate when there were sahaba who were million times better than him because they believed in the Rasuul pbuh before him, and they participated at badr/uhud while he didnt.
Indeed his blindness and qabilism made him to rebel against Amiir Ali r.a who was even better than Uthman r.a in knowledge bravery as some culuma said in the past.


Wasnt Muawiya not the man who encouraged Syrians to curse Imam Ali al Murtaza radiyallah anhu?

Didnt Prophet PBUH said whoever hates/curses Ali r.a then know that he(the person) hates Allah and his Messenger pbuh.

Also prophet PBUH said about Ammar ibn Yasir radiyallah anhu who was shia't Ali r.a: Oh Alas, he will be killed by rebellious group(shia't Muawiya). He invites them to the Jannah while they invite him to the Hellfire.

We must always choose Ali r.a over Muawiya and admit that Muawiya(may Allah forgive him) did sin by rebelling.

[Eaglehawk]

Muawiyah was wrong and disobeyed orders and his rebellion was a sign to the new era Muslims were entering

Another sign that the Umayyad Caliphate was wrong his, when they moved the capital from protect and secure place of mecca to worldly city of Damascus

the arab tribal influence on islamic governance is immanence and not many scholars study the impact that arab tribalism had on the islamic cohesion and the universal islamic concept of ummah

the arabs didn't know any other form of governance rather than through tribal alliances and the arabs had suspicion of adopting the persian system fully even though they were more reptive to persian cultural contribution and bureaucracy

the answer lies with this hadith

This affair began with Prophethood and as a mercy; then it will be mercy and Caliphate; afterwards it will change into a cruel monarchy, and finally into an iniquity and tyranny." He also prophesied: "Surely, the Caliphate after me will last thirty years; afterwards it will be a cruel monarchy."

(Abu Dawud, At‘ıma, 11; Tirmidhi, At‘ıma, 39; I. Hanbal, 5.441.)

[Oba]

Good looking out Sahal. Learned a lot with your responses. Inshaallah, I'll continue looking into that time of history.

thanks brother. I'm fit that is all I got I like to post more pics but the avatar is not accepting them. Evry day I tray with 10 to the point I was all the time at this site in the last two days.

Ma anaa waalan or sahal's response has nothing to do with Coldoon's remark? WTH!

i know sow maha

[Coldoon]

Leftist,

Umar Ibn Khattab had nothing to do with the first Fitnah. In fact, during his reign, the Rashidun Caliphate cracked down on criminals and mischiefs, to the point where the Caliph Umar, would sleep under the shade of a tree without needing bodyguards/security. That's how peaceful and trustworthy the Muslim society was during Umar's reign. I partially agree with you on the accusations and criticisms the Bani Umayah faced. I think Uthman's reign ignited the one-family lead type of Leadership, hence Umayyad Caliphate.

Overall, that was a good read. Really cleared a lot of the blurry misconceptions I had. I also strongly agree with you on the part of the Sahaba not being infallible, which some Muslims believe they were, which is wrong and a great innovation.

How did Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, came to dominate Sham? Wasn't his father a prominent leader of the Makkan tribes, during the Prophet's early years? How is it possible that a man, who's originally from Mekka come to dominate Sham's political and social environments?

[Somaliman50]

The intention of Aisha, Zubair and Talha were good may Allah bless them. And the intention of Alli r.a was more better may Allah bless him. Both wanted to capture the killers but they disagreed the timing.
As for Muawiya he had no right to rebel or think even about caliphate when there were sahaba who were million times better than him because they believed in the Rasuul pbuh before him, and they participated at badr/uhud while he didnt.
Indeed his blindness and qabilism made him to rebel against Amiir Ali r.a who was even better than Uthman r.a in knowledge bravery as some culuma said in the past.


Wasnt Muawiya not the man who encouraged Syrians to curse Imam Ali al Murtaza radiyallah anhu?

Didnt Prophet PBUH said whoever hates/curses Ali r.a then know that he(the person) hates Allah and his Messenger pbuh.

Also prophet PBUH said about Ammar ibn Yasir radiyallah anhu who was shia't Ali r.a: Oh Alas, he will be killed by rebellious group(shia't Muawiya). He invites them to the Jannah while they invite him to the Hellfire.

We must always choose Ali r.a over Muawiya and admit that Muawiya(may Allah forgive him) did sin by rebelling.

hutuking, why the harsh words against khaal al mumineen mucaawiyah ibn abi sufyaan (radiyalla canhuma)? Wasnt he a sahabi? Wasnt he the kaatib al waxyi? Wasnt he the brother in law of the rasool calayhi salatu wasalam? Do you know how many books the aimah of the ahl sunnah wrote about him in defence?

If you have nothing good to say, then say nothing at all.

[grandpakhalif]

Muawiyah the Uncle of the Believers.

[Leftist]

How did Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, came to dominate Sham? Wasn't his father a prominent leader of the Makkan tribes, during the Prophet's early years? How is it possible that a man, who's originally from Mekka come to dominate Sham's political and social environments?

Short answer: He was a political genius, smart as hell, and a leader of men.

But he also put in some serious work: By the time Uthman was assassinated, he had been the governor of Shaam for 20 years. That's a long ass time. Two generations of Shaam'ians grew up under his rule. He was generous, wise, and capable, all of which earned him the unquestionable loyalty of the people of Shaam.

And contrary to Shia propaganda, it wasn't Uthman that appointed him to be the governor of Shaam, it was Umar bin Khattab after he was impressed by his leadership abilities in the battles against the Romans.

Umar Ibn Khattab had nothing to do with the first Fitnah. In fact, during his reign, the Rashidun Caliphate cracked down on criminals and mischiefs, to the point where the Caliph Umar, would sleep under the shade of a tree without needing bodyguards/security. That's how peaceful and trustworthy the Muslim society was during Umar's reign.

I know, hindsight is 20/20. But still, there's no escaping the facts: not establishing a army to protect the capital Madeenah directly lead to a) assassination of Umar b) assassination of Uthman c) Civil War d) the end of concensus/shura-derived Khilaafah and the beginning of family-owned autocratic monarchy.

I'm not placing the onus of all that on Umar; not at all, there's no way he could've known what would go down a few years later. But think about this: All the Persians or the Romans had to do to sack Madeenah, and end the Khilaafah for good, was to sail a fleet up or down the Red Sea, land a small army of the coast, and march into Madeenah with no army to stop them.

Huge mistake. Huge.

[AhlulbaytSoldier]

The intention of Aisha, Zubair and Talha were good may Allah bless them. And the intention of Alli r.a was more better may Allah bless him. Both wanted to capture the killers but they disagreed the timing.
As for Muawiya he had no right to rebel or think even about caliphate when there were sahaba who were million times better than him because they believed in the Rasuul pbuh before him, and they participated at badr/uhud while he didnt.
Indeed his blindness and qabilism made him to rebel against Amiir Ali r.a who was even better than Uthman r.a in knowledge bravery as some culuma said in the past.


Wasnt Muawiya not the man who encouraged Syrians to curse Imam Ali al Murtaza radiyallah anhu?

Didnt Prophet PBUH said whoever hates/curses Ali r.a then know that he(the person) hates Allah and his Messenger pbuh.

Also prophet PBUH said about Ammar ibn Yasir radiyallah anhu who was shia't Ali r.a: Oh Alas, he will be killed by rebellious group(shia't Muawiya). He invites them to the Jannah while they invite him to the Hellfire.

We must always choose Ali r.a over Muawiya and admit that Muawiya(may Allah forgive him) did sin by rebelling.

hutuking, why the harsh words against khaal al mumineen mucaawiyah ibn abi sufyaan (radiyalla canhuma)? Wasnt he a sahabi? Wasnt he the kaatib al waxyi? Wasnt he the brother in law of the rasool calayhi salatu wasalam? Do you know how many books the aimah of the ahl sunnah wrote about him in defence?

If you have nothing good to say, then say nothing at all.

I criticized him only for his rebellion and his wish to turn caliphate into oppressieve monarch.
He is not prophet that we cannot criticize nor was he member of the elite group of sahaba who were promised paradise, and neither was he amongst those that fought the mushrikiin at Badr and Uhud.



Nevertless may Allah have mercy upon him!

[Coldoon]

Leftist,

You made some great points. Was Madinah really that easy to sack? I partially agree, the building of a "Republican Guard" type of army solely for the protection of Madinah and Makkah was needed. The actions of Abu Bakr and Umar certainly lead to the events of Uthman's murder and the rift between the Ummah. It's a simple chain reaction.

I still can't fathom Muawiyah's ascend to dominating Sham. During the battles against the Romans, such as the Battle of Yarmouk, the leading Generals were Khalid Ibn Walid (R.A), Amr ibn Al-A'as (R.A), and Abu Ubaidah ibn al-Jarrah (R.A). Not to mention, Amr Ib Al-A'as was the man who invaded Roman-Egypt and conquered Egypt. They had more of a right to be named Governors of Sham or Egypt than Muawiyah, who was merely a soldier and not amongst the top Generals.

Where was Ali Ibn Abu Talib (R.A), during the reign of Umar Ibn Khattab? His name isn't mentioned in any of the battles the Muslims fought against the Romans and the Persians?

[gurey25]

Mucawiya was chosen because of his administrative skills and leadership qualities but also because of his knowledge of sham.
The bani ummaya were amongs the richest the elite of mecca and they had extensive trade links in al sham.
Mucawiyas family owned several estates in philistine and the jordan valley before islam and they all spent time in damascus , they knew the people .
Mucawiya had contacts in damascus even before he was appointed governer.

The same with Amr ibn al cas with egypt.
He was the only meccan to have travelled externsivly in egypt before islam.
Egypt was not on the trade route and nobody knew it like al sham, but he know how rich it was and the political situation.

[sahal80]

Mucawiya was chosen because of his administrative skills and leadership qualities but also because of his knowledge of sham.
The bani ummaya were amongs the richest the elite of mecca and they had extensive trade links in al sham.
Mucawiyas family owned several estates in philistine and the jordan valley before islam and they all spent time in damascus , they knew the people .
Mucawiya had contacts in damascus even before he was appointed governer.

The same with Amr ibn al cas with egypt.
He was the only meccan to have travelled externsivly in egypt before islam.
Egypt was not on the trade route and nobody knew it like al sham, but he know how rich it was and the political situation.

Yes amr bin aas use to speak the african languages that why he led the al hijra to al habasha. There is an egyptian musalsal that was written by a secularist egyptian writer called usama anwar cukaasha. He gives bad pictur to amr bin aas where he stands and looks upon alexanderia city dreaming one day to conqure it and that he found this opprtiunity in the islam. But at the end banu umaya. Has taking advantage of their reer magaalnimo and tooke over the rest.

[Coldoon]

Mucawiya was chosen because of his administrative skills and leadership qualities but also because of his knowledge of sham.
The bani ummaya were amongs the richest the elite of mecca and they had extensive trade links in al sham.
Mucawiyas family owned several estates in philistine and the jordan valley before islam and they all spent time in damascus , they knew the people .
Mucawiya had contacts in damascus even before he was appointed governer.

The same with Amr ibn al cas with egypt.
He was the only meccan to have travelled externsivly in egypt before islam.
Egypt was not on the trade route and nobody knew it like al sham, but he know how rich it was and the political situation.

Now, that makes sense. The Abu Sufyan family having ties to Sham, running the trading business between people of Hijaz and Sham, would easily place Muawiyah as the leader of Sham. Weren't there any prominent Asahaab that were originally from Sham, thus had more rights to be named governors than Muawiyah, a native of Hijaz?

I believe Amr Ib Al'A'as is a cousin of Muawiyah, they're from the same Banu Umayya tribe and for that reason he never challenged Muawiyah's leadership. In fact, he was on Muawiyah's side during the First Fitnah. Are the Banu Umayya part of the Quraiysh? Because, I thought the Quraiysh were the elite in Makkah.