Just watched "12 Years A Slave"

[Tanker]

Have you seen the current state of Haiti? That type of movie would only confirm that blacks are better off being enslaved.

It's like the USC making a movie about the overthrow of MSB...doesn't really have a good ending does it?

[Based]

Seriously though, I just don't get the point of fighting and dying for ages only to end up worse off in the long run.

I don't think anybody, even those in the most repressed countries in the world, would choose Somalia's current state over their horrific government.

You just can't come to grips with the reality you created, and in the deepest, darkest recesses of your soul, you know you were better off accepting the status quo

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Seriously though, I just don't get the point of fighting and dying for ages only to end up worse off in the long run.

I don't think anybody, even those in the most repressed countries in the world, would choose Somalia's current state over their horrific government.

You just can't come to grips with the reality you created, and in the deepest, darkest recesses of your soul, you know you were better off accepting the status quo

And what exactly was that?

[Tanker]

Seriously though, I just don't get the point of fighting and dying for ages only to end up worse off in the long run.

I don't think anybody, even those in the most repressed countries in the world, would choose Somalia's current state over their horrific government.

You just can't come to grips with the reality you created, and in the deepest, darkest recesses of your soul, you know you were better off accepting the status quo

And what exactly was that?

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Badly recorded propaganda videos?

[Based]

And what exactly was that?

A flawed government.

A lot of you assume I'm arguing from a "Darood" perspective when I'm actually trying to be objective. I'm not going to tell you Somalia was heaven on earth nor am I arguing that overthrowing the government was a bad decision in and of itself. By all means, if you think you can do better, overthrow that shit and execute all the leaders for all I care.

Just make sure you've got something better and if not, accept the consequences of your ill-advised actions i.e. the whole failed state thing.

I think that's something any rational person would agree with.

[Tanker]

Badly recorded propaganda videos?

That is how Things were recorded back in 1984.... and it shows a strong and organized nationhood.... infact most of those kids in the video were killed or forced to be child troops in the post-siyad barre hell known as Somalia.

[STARKAST]

Based only a retard would refute what you just said above. However only retards would attempt to counter what you said when it displays pure logic.

Only a hutu mooryan would argue with that or a eydoor who has emotional connections to hutu destruction with the hope of succession but thats backfired

[BlackVelvet]

fighting and dying for ages only to end up worse off in the long run

Fact:

1. During the decline of the MSB regime the non-MOD (Mareexaan, Ogaadeen, Dhulbahante) clans suffered intense nepotism
2. Non-MOD qabiils were the victims of relentless government funded attacks and intimidation
3. The MSB's red berets were responsible for the rape of Somali women and torture of citizens


Fact:

1. Since 1991 there have been more universities and schools built than in the entire duration of the MSB regime
2. Without government intimidation and corruption business has boomed
3. New industries such as telecoms have emerged which can compete with those of neighbouring countries
4. The biggest outcome of the civil war has been the mass migration of Somalis into the Western world and having access to opportunities most would never have dreamt of


Also:

Why do you act like only Hawiyes wanted MSB out? All non-MOD clans were against him and even some of the MODs. The man was a criminal, a dictator and a killer. The fact that his fall led to Somali descending into civil war is no surprise - read up on changing regimes via armed conflict.


In conclusion:

No we're not all worse off in comparison to what Somalia was, perhaps if you were on the MOD side of the fence who enjoyed the fruits of nepotism and corruption. For the remaining 99% of Somalis, life wasn't as fruity. And as you type on your laptop in your living room enjoying your life in the West ironically you have the fall of MSB and the civil war to thank for the good and the bad that comes with being a qurbo joog.

Yes it would have been nice if the fall of MSB had been followed by an immediate formation of a new government, USC tried but ultimately Somalia is not the exception, what happened was the rule. Never in history has an armed revolution led to overnight peace and prosperity. In the case of Somalia where people can't even agree on a regime responsible for the documented atrocities deserved to kicked out, if we can't agree on that is it a surprise that it's taken 20 years and counting to build something together?

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

And what exactly was that?

A flawed government.

A lot of you assume I'm arguing from a "Darood" perspective when I'm actually trying to be objective. I'm not going to tell you Somalia was heaven on earth nor am I arguing that overthrowing the government was a bad decision in and of itself. By all means, if you think you can do better, overthrow that shit and execute all the leaders for all I care.

Just make sure you've got something better and if not, accept the consequences of your ill-advised actions i.e. the whole failed state thing.

I think that's something any rational person would agree with.

I don't disagree with your point. Somalia was a deeply flawed state but had some measure of respect in the world. But I think we can both say that Siad Barres regime, especially in the later years, was a series of terrible blunders. It was clear that the man was not gifted in the arts of administration or war. In fact his greatest achievement was that he ever managed to get to power in the first place. I say this not as an Isaaq but as an objective student of history. You say that Somalia was much better then than it is now and I agree 100% - if you mean Xamar. But Somaliland is 100% (slight exaggeration) better today than it was under afweyne.

[STARKAST]

4. The biggest outcome of the civil war has been the mass migration of Somalis into the Western world and having access to opportunities most would never have dreamt of

Refugees

Aren't you another dumb hutu no honor.


Dumb hutus can't just admit

A) they've been living in the middle ages for 25 years
B) they've ruined the Somali name that has impacted on even horn of Africans
C) they are worthless people

LiquidHYDROGEN that was a smart paragraph but i'd expect that from a person from a region that is a success story not the people that are the set of the walking dead

[hydrogen]

[Hodan94]

fighting and dying for ages only to end up worse off in the long run

Fact:

1. During the decline of the MSB regime the non-MOD (Mareexaan, Ogaadeen, Dhulbahante) clans suffered intense nepotism
2. Non-MOD qabiils were the victims of relentless government funded attacks and intimidation
3. The MSB's red berets were responsible for the rape of Somali women and torture of citizens


Fact:

1. Since 1991 there have been more universities and schools built than in the entire duration of the MSB regime
2. Without government intimidation and corruption business has boomed
3. New industries such as telecoms have emerged which can compete with those of neighbouring countries
4. The biggest outcome of the civil war has been the mass migration of Somalis into the Western world and having access to opportunities most would never have dreamt of


Also:

Why do you act like only Hawiyes wanted MSB out? All non-MOD clans were against him and even some of the MODs. The man was a criminal, a dictator and a killer. The fact that his fall led to Somali descending into civil war is no surprise - read up on changing regimes via armed conflict.


In conclusion:

No we're not all worse off in comparison to what Somalia was, perhaps if you were on the MOD side of the fence who enjoyed the fruits of nepotism and corruption. For the remaining 99% of Somalis, life wasn't as fruity. And as you type on your laptop in your living room enjoying your life in the West ironically you have the fall of MSB and the civil war to thank for the good and the bad that comes with being a qurbo joog.

Yes it would have been nice if the fall of MSB had been followed by an immediate formation of a new government, USC tried but ultimately Somalia is not the exception, what happened was the rule. Never in history has an armed revolution led to overnight peace and prosperity. In the case of Somalia where people can't even agree on a regime responsible for the documented atrocities deserved to kicked out, if we can't agree on that is it a surprise that it's taken 20 years and counting to build something together?

I agree 100%, not all of us lived the booli qaran lifestyle.

[BlackVelvet]

4. The biggest outcome of the civil war has been the mass migration of Somalis into the Western world and having access to opportunities most would never have dreamt of

Refugees

Aren't you another dumb hutu no honor.


Dumb hutus can't just admit

A) they've been living in the middle ages for 25 years
B) they've ruined the Somali name that has impacted on even horn of Africans
C) they are worthless people

LiquidHYDROGEN that was a smart paragraph but i'd expect that from a person from a region that is a success story not the people that are the set of the walking dead

It would be a waste of my time to try and have an intelligent conversation with you. Find someone at your level

[Based]

Fact:

1. During the decline of the MSB regime the non-MOD (Mareexaan, Ogaadeen, Dhulbahante) clans suffered intense nepotism
2. Non-MOD qabiils were the victims of relentless government funded attacks and intimidation
3. The MSB's red berets were responsible for the rape of Somali women and torture of citizens

What part of a flawed government did you not understand?

Fact:

1. Since 1991 there have been more universities and schools built than in the entire duration of the MSB regime
2. Without government intimidation and corruption business has boomed
3. New industries such as telecoms have emerged which can compete with those of neighbouring countries
4. The biggest outcome of the civil war has been the mass migration of Somalis into the Western world and having access to opportunities most would never have dreamt of

1. Somalia is no longer a state in any sense of the word.
2. Somalia is now a playground for various African countries with tens of thousands of foreign troops on Somali soil
3. Somalia is now fragmented into dozens of various fiefdoms, used as proxies by the aforementioned African countries who themselves are proxies of the West
3. Upwards of half a million have perished
4. Starvation, war, preventable diseases, and unspeakable poverty continue to threaten millions
5. Millions are still refugees throughout the world, from those eeking a miserable existence in Dadaab to dying in the streets of Alberta to London
6. There is no end in sight to our pitiful state

Why do you act like only Hawiyes wanted MSB out? All non-MOD clans were against him and even some of the MODs. The man was a criminal, a dictator and a killer. The fact that his fall led to Somali descending into civil war is no surprise - read up on changing regimes via armed conflict.

I don't act likes it's only Hawiyes. However, the onus of responsibility must fall on those who spin the narrative of chasing the late dictator to Kenya and his followers to refugee camps. No other country in the world failed so spectacularly after they overthrew their government. Somalia has the exclusive and unenviable position of the world's first and only failed state.

No we're not all worse off in comparison to what Somalia was, perhaps if you were on the MOD side of the fence who enjoyed the fruits of nepotism and corruption. For the remaining 99% of Somalis, life wasn't as fruity. And as you type on your laptop in your living room enjoying your life in the West ironically you have the fall of MSB and the civil war to thank for the good and the bad that comes with being a qurbo joog.

Yes it would have been nice if the fall of MSB had been followed by an immediate formation of a new government, USC tried but ultimately Somalia is not the exception, what happened was the rule. Never in history has an armed revolution led to overnight peace and prosperity. In the case of Somalia where people can't even agree on a regime responsible for the documented atrocities deserved to kicked out, if we can't agree on that is it a surprise that it's taken 20 years and counting to build something together?

I don't mean to sound insulting, but you seem a bit delusional. Any rational person would agree that a horrific government is preferable to nearly a quarter century and counting of complete and utter anarchy. Somalia is most certainly the only nation to ever fail after overthrowing their supposedly repressive government. As I've said before and will continue to say, there has never been a state so absolutely destroyed by a simple change of government. Out of the 87 or so African countries, let alone the world, that have gotten rid of one dictator or another, there has never been one that failed to the extent Somalia has. None. There really is no escaping that simple fact.