THERE IS NO CONVINCING ARGUMENT FOR SOMALLAND INDEPENDENCE

[zumaale]

There is no hope in trying to resuscitate a dead patient.

A just unified Somali state of any sort is nothing but a pipe dream.

In the South, the people that fly the Blue and White are the same people that will throw their fellow Somali under a bus to further their own business or clan interest.

So what is the point of even talking about a Greater Somalia when political Somalinimo is long dead.

In my humble opinion, each clan should be left to manage their own affairs.

If I was Isaaq, I would campaign for a state based on Isaaq territory as the honest truth is they are the only ones that wholeheartedly believe in the statehood of Somalilan

We Somalis owe loyalty to our Qabil first, nationalism and a Qabil identity can only co-exist in a one Qabil state.

Somali Unity waa meyd la ase, the best hope is to go back to our traditional clan boundaries without a central authority. An EU of sorts but without a political union.

[mahoka]

No point in this debate, if anyone attempts to unite somaliland with those sub humans down south then the guns are coming out, this time those isaaq traitors will be first

[Xildiiid]

Rambie, thanks bro.

Jugjug,

Waxay Somalidu ku maahmaahda 'Mar i dage, Alle ha dago. Mar labaad i dagase, anigaa is dagay' (Fool me once..). Uniting with Somalia is out question as a matter of principle. Even If Somalia became the USA of Africa, I wouldn't suggest unity.

Secondly, you will always be viewed as the antithesis to Somali unity by other Somalis simply because you're Isaaq and the Kacaan smeared our name through revision. I'm not saying that you should care about what other Somalis think because frankly none of us do but you should never negotiate or discuss important issues from a position of weakness. Many Isaaq ''unionists'' have swallowed the Walaweyn narrative i.e Somalidiid and many of them are anti Somaliland because they believe they can't be ethnic nationalists unless they are anti Somaliland. Many of them are looking for pats on the back, Cismaan Kalluun being a perfect example and that brings me back to my earlier post when I asked wether you're sincere or just looking for a pat on the back. I believe you're sincere but your arguments are not sincere because they're similar to the arguments of those brainwashed individuals.

Isaaq sacrificed Somaliland for the greater good of all Somalis on June 27th, 1960 when the Act of Union was ratified and signed in Hargeisa by the National Assembly of Somaliland, 2/3 of the MP's being Isaaq.

Even culturally, the poems, the songs, the plays yearning for Somali unity was created by Isaaq abwaans. Somalis from Somalia will play heesti Xoriyadda on July 1 yet consider Isaaq Somalidiid not knowing that it was created by Cali Sugulle who's Isaaq.

Heestii Xoriyadda

@10.00 onwards, Cali Sugulle explains the truth. His song hadaanan was even banned from Radio Hargeisa by the Colonial administration in mid 50's. Many abwaans had to use symbolic language to hide the message of Somali unity.

Cali Sugule even says, tix taa la mid ah ama kuwii kale ee xiligii xorriyada oo ay afarta Somaliyeed soo tiriyeen ma jiro. Anagaa shan Somaliyeed rabnay oo wadney cid nala wadayna may jirin. That summarizes what Somalilanders feel and the truth be told. They sacrificed themselves once and they did not gain anything.

Now, convince us to do the same mistake twice because to any rational human being that's illogical.

Hadaanan Qeylo dheer hayaay odhan,
Hororka celiyaay ku heelayn,
Hadaanan Gumeyste waan la hudmee,
Hanaqa iyo goyn halbowlaha,
Hadaanan Shantu waa isku hiddee,
Hiilkiyo isku raacin hoodaba,
Hadaanan rabbi baa hagaajin karee,
Hadhuub iyo siin hubka is wadaa
Hadaanan Xamar wey hadhsantahaye
Hargeysaas ku saarin Heegada
Hadaanan Hawd u hawshoon
Hilbahayga iga maqan la soo hadhin
Hadaanan Jabuuti way hakatee
Hilinka kuwa kale hayaan marin
Hadaanay NFD hingalo dhigan,
Huurkiyo laga qaadin heeryada.

[luis1]

That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities

WSLF was used by Siad Barre to kill many innocent people at the end this evil guerrilla was destroyed by Ethiopia.

[Rambie]

-Of the problems I listed, besides piracy,famines resulting in mass death and al-shabaab (arguable), name one of them that we don't face as well whether backhome or in the diaspora.

-The kacaan wanted to be aligned with Russia, keyword wanted. The Russians warned him against going to war with Ethiopia and even sent Fidel Castro to convince him not to. The man wouldn't budge, and when the Kremlin betrayed him during the war he kicked the Soviets out of the country. Compare that to Somaliland and Puntland oo madaxdooda ay Ethiopia farta ugu yeedho, and the south which is essentially under occupation.

-You claim I'm biased because I have unionists in my family. If we go by this logic then ur entire argument is biased too since you undoubtedly have seccesionists in ur family.

-That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities. Before I can change my stance on the SNM I would need to know more about the extent of the WSLF crimes against Isaaqs in the hawd; whether the Kacaan was deliberately arming WSLF not just to fight Ethiopia but but also to target Isaaqs or if not whether it knew the WSLF had gone rogue and was deliberately indifferent to this fact and continued their support to the group despite Isaaq suffering. I know that's the sources you posted indicate this but I need more info. There isn't a lot of info on the net pertaining to these issues, so I'll find out more when I go to Hargaysa next insha'Allah and talk people who are in the know and were alive as the events transpired. I'm open to changing my mind though if presented with enough convincing info that the Isaaq had no choice but to rebel.

_ That's alone is like 75% of the problems you listed, key word don't mix us with southerns or diaspora.

_ The kacan was a condom to the soviets and was treated as such. Tell me why Siad Barre adopted the Latin alphabet
as a script for the Somali language? Why did he adopted the Marxist ideology over the Muslim/Somali identity? Tell us how Africa's
3rd strongest army that lost the only war it ever participated in (Ogaden war) and was defeated by ragtag joint of militia's was established and founded by switching alliance and the dynamics of the cold war. He didn't waste any time after the Russian's throw him under the bus and rushed to Carter hopping to replace his provider. At least Ethiopia is right next to our door, he had to fly all they way to Russia and the U.S like a lost puppy. There was nothing national in the Kacaan era, he was merely a condom to the Soviets/American and was expired in 1977 and later in 1989.





-Forget about me, am a well known supporter of SL's rightful cause.
You won't find me switching sides or putting my people down whenever
it suits me. Plus am a very fair individual and try to see the big picture from a natural angle.
You claimed to be and I quote "cold, distant and objective" which is not true, at least 100%

_ Honestly, it's hard for me to believe that someone like you who writes articulate posts and has
a great knowledge in the rich Somali language and history to somehow miss the role of WSLF in the establishment
of SNM or it shameful deeds towards Isaaq in the Hawd (your people). You claim to be a Cidagalle, this is YOUR history with the OG in the Hawd.



I mean, you can just type WSLF & Isaaq in google books and get all the evidence you want.
They started the abuses an we responded by establishing the Afarad & SNM.



I reached my limits today but I'll give you this hint:

Africa Report, Volumes 39-40






You have no excuses anymore.

[Xildiiid]

That the WSLF used their arms against Isaaq civilians doesn't surprise me, considering the age old clan feuds between the Ogaden and Isaaq communities

WSLF was used by Siad Barre to kill many innocent people at the end this evil guerrilla was destroyed by Ethiopia.

That's true and the SNM started as a reaction to the regime's policy of arming WSLF, who committed crimes, and not the Isaaq. It lead to the creation of a paramilitary group called Afaraad made up by Isaaq nomads and when they managed to hold their ground and even defeat the WSLF in some battles, the Afweyne regime ordered soldiers from the SNA to cross into Ethiopia in order to help the WSLF against Afaraad and it was devestating.

The cynical betrayal of Afweyne and the SNA made Isaaq colonels organize what would later became the military wing of the SNM. Colonels such as Cabdilqaadir Koosaar who liberated Wardheer in the 1977 war, Cabdilaahi Askar also known as Cabdilaahi Godey because he liberated Godey in that same war.

[Libix]

JugJugwacwac, afkaaga caano geel iyo malaba lagu qabay!

[Xildiiid]

^
Jugjug dadkan yaanay waxba dhabarka ku salaaxin.

[26June1960]

There is no hope in trying to resuscitate a dead patient.

A just unified Somali state of any sort is nothing but a pipe dream.

In the South, the people that fly the Blue and White are the same people that will throw their fellow Somali under a bus to further their own business or clan interest.

So what is the point of even talking about a Greater Somalia when political Somalinimo is long dead.

In my humble opinion, each clan should be left to manage their own affairs.

If I was Isaaq, I would campaign for a state based on Isaaq territory as the honest truth is they are the only ones that wholeheartedly believe in the statehood of Somalilan

We Somalis owe loyalty to our Qabil first, nationalism and a Qabil identity can only co-exist in a one Qabil state.

Somali Unity waa meyd la ase, the best hope is to go back to our traditional clan boundaries without a central authority. An EU of sorts but without a political union.

I couldn't have said it better.

[Jugjugwacwac]

Thank you both to Xildiid and Rambie. I will definitely rethink my position on the SNM and refrain from making any disparaging remarks until I take a definitive stance.

Xildiid I understand where you're coming bro. When ur an ardent and sincere supporter of pan-Somali nationalism and irredentism and you're met with betrayal and persecution by the very people who are supposed to be on your side you'll be deeply hurt and will have a very difficult time of trusting such people ever again. I get it.

My issue is this. How can we uplift and better the situation of Somalis in the horn and weaken the grip of Ethiopia, Kenya, Amisom and the UN on our affairs? That's all i care about. If we can acheive this without political unity then I'm on board saaxiibayaal.

[Rambie]

Welcome on bord brother.
Your goal is noble, but unattainable in this lifetime.

[TheCadaanGuy]

Qabil state.



I hear Djibouti isn't too happy getting slapped round by Ethiopia.

[luis1]

Xilddid

group called Afaraad made up by Isaaq nomads and when they managed to hold their ground and even defeat the WSLF

I heard WSLF ceased to exist after Ogaden War. I dont know If my opinion is right or wrong.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

These are the three main reasons put forth to justify Somaliland's independence.

1. The political dispensation in Somalia from the very beginning in 1960 was unfair to the north. Due to the political culture of the south they are not interested in a fair and balanced system of sharing power.

2. The south is in chaos while Somaliland is an oasis of peace. Why join your house with your neighbours burning house?

3. Thousands were killed in northern cities by the Somali government. None of the criminals involved have been brought to justice.

In my opinion none of them hold water and here's why.

Ill start with the first point. To me this is misguided blame. Its not the south's fault that us northerners, swept up in a wave of nationalist sentiment, arrived in Mogadishu with the blue flag and pushed for a unity without any conditions. The southerners were much more politically shrewd and knew what was at stake. This resulted in us being sidelined during the 60s because of our own political shortcomings. But things changed with the Kacaan and northerners (including many Isaaqs) were given high level positions. In fact Siad Barre favoured the Isaaq in many ways because of their strong support for the kacaan in the early days; those of you who know about the special economic status Berbera was given for import export to the exclusion of other regions know what I'm talking about. Besides, what happened in the 60s is in the past, and we've definitely learned our lesson. Why are we acting like scared little girls who cant get whats rightfully theirs when it involves other Somalis? This baffles me because anyone whose seen someone from a northern city like Burco would know that reer waqooyi aren't push overs. I know all nomadic Somalis are like this, but northeners, regardless of clan, are especially known to be boisterous, loud and in your face, hence the term qaldaan. So its bizarre that they, specifically the Isaaq, practically turn into pussycats and want to hide in a corner when it comes to politics. My point is, everyone knows that northerners were wronged in the 60s, and this will definitely not happen again. In fact its more likely that the scenario will be reversed and that this time Somaliland will be in the drivers seat for a while with the blessing of the majority of Somalis, because they have much needed experience and expertise in governance.

This second point has the most merit, but it's only because Somaliland is much easier to pacify than the south. It's nowhere close to the confusing and competing patchwork of clans that reside in the south. It's basically the Isaaq, who form a big majority, along with some Harti (Dhulbahante, Warsangali) and Dir sublcans (Ciise, Gadabuursi). There are also smaller clans like the Madhibaan and the Fiqishinni (Subclan of Cayr, Habar Gidir). That's it. Also, it's culturally homogenous, with high intermarriage rates between the clans. This means wanton killings are very unlikley since dadku waa wiil iyo abtigii, and also because we all share the same xeer and thus our elders will be able to establish peace under a tree. Forget a myriad of clans, the south even has different ethnic groups and languages for Gods sake, so of course it going to be a very tall order to establish peace under such conditions. Not to mention that the capital is in the south, so all groups, like Al-shabaab and Amisom, who are vying to control this country will focus their attacks in Mogadishu. So it's not that northerners are inherently more peaceful, it's just that they've been lucky to live in an ethnically and culturally homogenous region, with very few competing clans and also happen to be very far away from the capital which is the epicentre of the violence. So when looked at from this light, the notion that southerners are savages and 'zoomalis' falls flat on its face. There is no difference between a Murursade man in Dayniile and an Ciidagale man in Salaxlay, it's just that the conditions they live in are different. In my opinion, it's Somaliland and Puntland's moral responsibility to team up and kick out both al-shabaab and Amisom from the south and pacify it. We can then move towards national reconciliation involving all the clans and factions and then form a strong unity government once there is forgiveness and trust is restored.

As for the last point usually brought up to support secession, I'll say this. First of all, the SNM rebellion preceded the bombings of Hargaysa and Burco. I see many Isaaqs making the mistake of saying the SNM had to fight the kacaan because it was bombing and killing their people, when in fact it was the other way around. We started the SNM in 1981 with the intent of toppling the regime, and then the SNM stormed the major cities of the north in 1988, which is what led to the bombings. Of course Siad Barre was dead wrong for bombing civilians, but he was a man desperate to hold on to power and would do anything to maintain his kursi. Look at what he did to his own kinsman in Mudug and Bari when they formed the SSDF. Wells were poisoned and many were killed, but the majeerteen have moved on and rarely bring this up. I know what happened in the north was worse, but we have to stop this victim mentality and stop peddling this victimhood narrative, because it's not befitting of the proud Isaaq clan. I'm not some african american living amongst cadaans, I'm a proud Somali living amongst fellow Somalis, so stop embarassing us with this victim bullshit and move the eff on. Also, it was the Kacaan that was responsible for the killings, so I don't get why many Somalilanders like to blame all daaroods or all southerners for it. What does a Mareexaan lady selling vegetables in Caabudwaaq or an Abgaal man in Ceelbuur have to do with the bombings in the north? The answer is absolutely nothing. Not even the current so called government of somalia has anything to do with it. Siad Barre's regime is long gone. So if Rwanda can move past the genocide of 1994, when neighbour was slaughtering neighbour, why can't we move on from what happened in the 80's, especially when we're not even up against those responsible for it?

And one last point, really quickly. An economic case can't be put forward either. The north is just as poor and unemployment just as rampant as in the rest of the country. Just look at the tahriib epidemic.

So is there any secessionist out there who can counter all of this with a convincing argument for secession?

As a Northerner I agree with you, I think we should get our share in Somalia it's our right, we can also lead it. We are stronger together.

[Sophisticate]

Let us debate the views of this brother in a civilized way.

The point should not be that he should automatically change his views but we have to correct misconceptions about Somaliland. Then it's up to him to rearrange his views in accordance with the facts we gave him.

Being an ethnic nationalist should not be on the expense of other Somalis.

Yaan la is xaasidin bruh. Aduunyadan waxaan uga hadhnay waa xinka dhillooyinka ee xaasidnimada ku saleysan ee aanu isla dhex wareegeyno.

I'm glad Djibouti is quite prosperous and I hope things work out for Somalia.

My contention is, the regurgitated narrative of (fake) Somali unity is not the answer. We live in a new era and we have to come up with strategies that can address and solve the problems we face. Singing 'Somaliyeey toosoo' and waving a blue flag while calling foreign troops on each other, that the so called unionists are doing, is part of that old narrative because Somaliweyn has never been a sincere concept.

As Maxamed Mooge sang in the 70's.

'Allahayow nin daacad ah iyo nin daalim ah deeqdaada ha u simin'.

The funny thing is I agree with you saaxiib, I know the majority of these ppl who propogate unionism are in reality clannish to the core and don't have a shred of patriotism. That's why I'm saying maybe Somaliland taking the lead in creating a new vision for the Somalis in the region will spearhead a paradigm shift that will sideline these crocodile tear specialists and bar them from politics. I think it would inspire true nationalists to come to the fore and do what should've been done all of these decades.

Walaal, what is this idyllic Somalia that you are propositioning? I doubt Somaliland wants to be the sacrificial lamb for Somalia again. Unity has historically equated divestment in the north in favour of the south. Would there really be a change? Are you proposing that Somaliland lead Somalia into a new day? That has plenty of push back - on both sides. Somalis are more concerned with one-upmanship and less on cooperation. Although some are cunning with forked tongues - preaching unity but wanting the lions share of IMF, World Bank and African Development Fund loans. Anywho, Somaliland ought to concern itself with balancing its own political inequalities before talk about union/succession continues.