A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

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A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Leftist »

I was reading about the Desolation of Al-Andalus and how the Catholic Spanish Crown managed to thoroughly exterminate Islam and Muslims from Iberia after an entrenched presence spanning 800 years. It made for a tragic & sad reading: Children forcibly taken from their parents and given to the Church to raise; entire villages emptied of their Muslim inhabitants and forced to leave homes they've been living in for centuries; even Muslims who genuinely converted to Christianity(and there were plenty) weren't safe, they were seen as not pure enough, hence the subsequent horrors of the Spanish Inquisition.

And then, I had a lightbulb moment go off :idea: What if this was Karma? What if this was fa kamaa tadeenu tudaan :idea:

Israel "stole" Palestinian land and currently occupies it in a brutal way? Maybe it's Karma, benevolent karma weliba, because, at the very least, the Palestinian are not being enslaved, sold as concubines, castrated on a systematic basis, <------- all of which is things we, as Muslims, have done to countless human beings over the 1400 years and in 3 different continents.

France occupied Algeria for 130 years? OK, at least they didn't occupy it for, 8 centuries, like the Ay-rabs and Ber-Bers did to Iberian Spain. 130 years < 800 years. Math, bro, math. Numbers 'n shid.

Even we as Somalis are not immune from the corrective powers of Karma: Witness the dhil, dhac, & kufsi that has befallen Somali people not just in East Africa but in distant and far lands where we are refugees. Witness the relentless tribal slaughter that reached it's apogee in the late 80's and early 90', where you and your family would be murdered by brave pious Somali-Muslims(who, let's not forget, are going to heaven, as opposed to the "filthy gaalo" social/aid/charity worker who will burn in heaven for eternity. /s) on the basis of yaa tahay. On the basis of fictional lineage, you would lose your life & property.

<---------- Maybe all of that was Karma's way of saying: "Soomaali Maxamed ee faradheer, thee who hath thought thy are "special" and "superior" with thy "aristocratic acquiline features"(lol, like legit LOL), thee who hath enslaved & subjugated thy fellow mankind, the Somali Bantus and other fellow Africans; thee who hath sold them "down the river" to thy religious kinfolk, the hairy Ay-rabs of the barren deserts; thee who hath oppressed, subjugated, raped, and murdered Somali Bantus for centuries, shalleth now reap a small taste of the horrors thou & thy hath inflicted on the innocents; for the Eye of Karma is ever-patient and doth not forget, until it thunders down upon thee and thy descendants with the vengeance of a raging flood that doth sweepeth all that is in it's path" (admit that, that was some righteous writing, innit?)

Now, from a theological perspective, a Quranic ayah clearly states: "Walaa taziru waaziratun wazri ukhraa" A soul shall not bear and be held responsibe for the sins of another. So, that kinda sounds like a categorical refutation and rejection of the concept of Karma.

But not so fast, Koolay Cali Banjar, not. so. fast. For another Quranic ayah doth sayeth: "wa'taqoo fitnatun laa tuseeban al'latheena thalamaooo minkum khaasa" Fear a fitna/triblation that wil not be inflicted on only the guilty.

A tribulation that will not only be inflicted on the guilty(implied: but it will also be inflicted on the innocent as well). Is it possible that is what happened the Muslims of Andalus? That they are paying for all of the murder & rape & slavery that the Ay-rabs who burst out of the bowels of Arabia, along with the Ber-Bers and Tur-kiks in the 7th/8th/9th inflicted on not just Spain, but entire regions and countless of human beings for centuries?

It sure does look like it. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Nothing. In my teens, I had a Greek coworker who was fresh off the boat, and off the jump, yo,I noticed he had a very cold demeanor towards me, at times bordering on hostility. And it was only years later, that another Greek coworker told me why that was: The Ottoman Empire brutally subjugated Greece for centuries which culminated in the Greek genocide* early in the 20th century. I like to think of myself as extremely well-read, but even I didn't know that. I was walking around self-satisfied that I'm some sorta Human Encyclopedia #humblebrag, especially when it comes to history(my specialty), but I had no clue that my fellows in faith, the Ottoman Empire, inflicted centuries of occupation & subjugation on the Greek people, including my coworker's grandparents, hence his hostility, Sidaas oo kale, I will never forget the look of anger & disgust a Somali Bantu that I used to play soccer with gave me when he thought I was Habar-Gidir(wal ciyaathu billah.....just kidding, or am I? :? ). The conversation went something like this:

Gives me a look of intense anger and disgust: "Wallahi billahi adiga waa ku aqaanaa, Habar-gidir aa uu ektahay,"

I was all like: "chiiilll, fam, yo relaaaax. I ain't no effin Habar-Gidir"
He be like: "Saxiib, been aa ii sheegoysaa, ha inkirin waxaa aa tahay"

After finally convincing him that I was not Habar-gidir, not even close, he opened up: Habar-Gidir militia, who knows, maybe they were the Madar-kicis militia of The Mahdi & Taliye AW252, killed his uncle, dragged him off a bus, and shot him point-blank, just for kicks, in front of his eyes; he was 6 years old. They also raped women from his tuulo in Shabelle. The brave heroic USC freedom fighters that toppled the evil dictator Siad Barre!!! The brave heroic freedom fighters(all jabhads included, not just USC) that starved Somalia to a famine, forcing the world to act and intervene, yaa salaaam!.

Point being, the centuries long subjugation of the Somali Bantu by the lamagoodle/faradheer/laandheer(aka Beesha Caqli-Dugaag), and more importantly, our critical engagement in the slave trade where countless of innocent human beings where shipped from Somali ports ranging from Zeylac and Berbera in the north to Kismaayo in the SOuth, has to be accounted for. We can't just raise the flag of independence in 1960, idolize the tribal chieftain Maxamed Cabdullahi Xasan, and just wash our hands of the past. Naaaaaaaaaaaah, homie. Gotta pay the fuckin' pied piper, feel me? Gotta bring balance back to The Force, and there is & was a SEVERE imbalance that the eyes of History attest to: Hence, the corrective actions of Karma: Civil War. Dhil, Dhac, Kufsi, Famine. Drought. Anarchy.

Now, I understand that many of you reading this, are card-carrying members of Beesha Caqli-Dugaag, and that you have given up your God-given intellect in favor of archiac religious dogma & "traditional culture", but just think about it: What kind of world would we be living in if the Ay-rabs of the 7th/8th/9th century and the Pur-shans of the 10th/11th/12th century and the Turks of the 13th/14th/15th/16th/17th century had adopted and implemented progressive & liberal policies, liberal shit like: "don't enslave anybody, bro, yeah, yeah, i know it's *technically* allowed, but we can just pronounce it mansookh(abrogated); it's just not a nice thing to enslave another human, fuck(rape) them, or sell them in the market like they were cattle. That's just not humane, bro. And, you know, don't carry out collective punishments like the mass executions & mass enslavement that happened to Bani Quraytha of Medina because that's something only the Nazis would do(and did) during WWII where they would exterminate entire villages in the name of "justice". And maybe we can announce universal human rights, right now in the 7th century bro, here in Arabia, land of the liberals and home of humanity, so that means no more jizya and all that jazz, we can also declare jizya to be mansookh, all human beings are equal in every way, and are entitled to freedom of thought, speech, & belief that no authority can transgress on., that's what i'm sayin doe, brooooo/akhiiiiiii"

I would venture to say that if the 7th century Ay-rabs did enact and adopt those liberal & progressive policies, we would live in a much different world. Karma would not have to issue it's horrific corrective actions

But they didn't. Instead, what they did was hold on to fucked up dogma, refuse to reform it and insist on a pedantic-literal reading of it, which gave them the permission to engage in fucked up Imperio-Colonial behavior, like invading & occupying Spain/NorthAfrica/Egypt/Shaam/Persia/India for centuries and kidnapping and exporting, as sex-slaves, young girls to cities all over the Muslim world, including the "holy lands" like Makkah, Madina, and Jerusalem. Imagine open-air slave markets being conducted in "holy-lands". Imagine you walking around examining & fondling the thighs & breasts of female slaves as they are on display like red-light district of Amsterdam, except in Amsterdam they are their on their own free will, while the blessed pious Companion Abdullahi bin Umar forcbibly fondles and molests a female slave declaring her as "nothing but mercandise"(quote: inamaa hiya sil'ca) as the athaan for salaadul duhur is called. Man, wouldn't it be great to be living in those blessed spiritual times /s.

And so, I think we need to seriously examine the possibility, that EVERYTHING that has befallen and happened to the Muslim Ummah over the past 2 centuries, from the European colonization & subjugation, to the rivers of sectarian bloodshed(still ongoing), to the atrocious state of development & backwardness, is actually just a small fraction of Karmic payback, a Corrective Action, for all of the invasion & occupation, along with the ever-present murder, rape & slavery, that has been committed in the name of Islam starting from the very first Rashidun Caliphate army that headed north to Mesopotamia & the Levant, motivated by the exact same things that has motivated all Empires before it and after it: Greed & Lust: lust for sex, as well as lust for riches and lust for power & dominion over other human beings)

But, you know what, that's a tall order, it's asking too much. Much better that we just insist that we are "special" and "God's chosen people" who will enter heaven while everybody else(including James Dahl & Grant) will burn in hell, /sarcasm. Because if we start going down this road, the road of owning responsibility, and when possible, making amends for our brutal history and the brutality we inflicted on countless of people, from the mass executions of Banu Qurayza* to the Armenian Genocide** and everything in between, well, our flimsy House of Cards will collapse.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza (Note:When we do collective punishment, it's ok, because, you know, we're "special" But when the Nazis do the exact same thing it's proof positive of their inhumane savagery. Can you not see how much better and superior we are to the Nazis, akhi?)

**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide Note:(As Shirib noted on another thread, what happened to the Armenians wasn't our fault as Muslims, because it was carried out by ethnic Turks who enlisted the aid of Ay-rabs, both who just so happen to be Muslim, but hey bro, it's totally not our fault, just like what happened to Banu Qurayza isn't our fault either, cuz they had it coming you know, kinda like the Armenians had it coming too; because they were engaged in treason, akhi, and the punishment for treason is...........collective death & mass execution???? :shock: :(
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by jalaaludin5 »

Israel "stole" Palestinian land and currently occupies it in a brutal way? Maybe it's Karma, benevolent karma weliba, because, at the very least, the Palestinian are not being enslaved, sold as concubines, castrated on a systematic basis, <------- all of which is things we as Muslims , have done to countless human beings over the 1400 years and in 3 different continents.
:comeon: :comeon: :comeon:
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by QaxootiWaaxid »

bro I NEED TO KNOW what drugs you take

... I AM NEVER THIS PRODUCTIVE :damn: :damn:
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by COOL-MAN »

QaxootiWaaxid wrote:bro I NEED TO KNOW what drugs you take

... I AM NEVER THIS PRODUCTIVE :damn: :damn:
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Lion104 »

Stupid leftist
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by smooth »

This infidel hails from the Bermuda triangle clan, it looks like even so called progressive ideas combined with atheistic gaalinimo will not make you immune from qabyaalad.
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by MayDay777 »

You expect people to waste time reading all that shit?

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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Leftist »

We will now examine what might be called our very own "Original Sin, a incident so shocking in it's brutality that some historians(admittedly modern revisionists) actually call into question whether or not it actually took place. I'm speaking about the collective punishment(just like the Nazis did) in the form of mass execution and mass enslavement of Bani Qurayda in Madeenah. Wikipedia(which is wholly sourced from Ibn Katheer, Tabari, & Ibn Ishaq; distinguished classical scholarship doesn't get better than them) will give us a short primer of what went down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qura ... nu_Qurayza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, "Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!" This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, "By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken." Then he went to the men and said, "God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel." Then he sat down and his head was struck off.
In the 8th and early 9th century many Muslim jurists, such as Ash-Shafii, based their judgments and decrees supporting collective punishment for treachery on the accounts of the demise of the Qurayza, with which they were well acquainted
A few thoughts:

- Collective punishment is immoral, unIslamic, & fundamentally unjust. If I do something wrong, others should not be punished for my crime. The notion that if I do something wrong, my brother, father, and cousins will all be killed, and my wife and children will be sold into slavery: Can there be anything more fucked up than that? No. That's some evil, heinous, shit.

- If the rationale for Bani Qurayza to be collectively punished is that they were "engaging in treason", then why weren't Quraysh afforded the same brutal treatment? For close to 2 decades, the Qurayshi Meccans tortured Muslims to the point of death, blockaded them to the point of starvation, and engaged in wars of extermination where they wanted to literally exterminate the Muslim community.... but they get forgiveness and a kiss on the cheek? Yet Banu Qurayda, who did not even commit a single offense that resulted in harm, get Nazi-like mass executions and even worse than the Nazis, are sold into slavery? Even if it's proven that Bani Qurayda were "engaging in treason", why weren't just the ring-leaders punished? Instead you're going to exterminate an entire community(the same thing Quraysh was doing to you, but they get forgiven bekows #arabs-are-bae/jews-not-so-much##kthxbye) by mass executing 700 men the vast majority who were innocent, and worse, sell into sordid brutal slavery, hundreds if not thousands of women and children? That's some fucked up shit, by any historical standards.

The only way for us to make sense of heinous evil of that magnitude is to deny it every happened. Which means we will have to go against 14 centuries of scholarship and reject what is considered "established history".
Walid N. Arafat and Barakat Ahmad have disputed that the Banu Qurayza were killed on quite such a large scale.[15] Arafat disputes large-scale killings and argued that Ibn Ishaq gathered information from descendants of the Qurayza Jews, who embellished or manufactured the details of the incident. Arafat relates the testimony of Ibn Hajar, who denounced this and other accounts as "odd tales" and quoted Malik ibn Anas, a contemporary of Ibn Ishaq, whom he rejected as a "liar", an "impostor" and for seeking out the Jewish descendants for gathering information about Muhammad's campaign with their forefathers.[16] Ahmad argues that only some of the tribe were killed, while some of the fighters were merely enslaved.[17][90] Watt finds Arafat's arguments "not entirely convincing",[1] while Meir J. Kister has contradicted [clarification needed] the arguments of Arafat and Ahmad.[91]

On the basis of a historical-critical text analysis, pushed by the Revisionist School of Islamic Studies since the 1970s, the historicity of the event is doubted on the basis of new arguments. After e.g. Hans Jansen or Jonathan P. Berkey, also Fred Donner became known to doubt the historicity of the event.[92]
Assuming that the massacre of Banu Qurayda is factual and took place as Ibn Katheer, Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, & Ibn Asaakir said it did(ie, mass execution + mass slavery = worse than Nazis/ Aso, Qurayshi pagans who are hell-bent on genocide get forgiveness and a kiss on the cheek, because Ay-rab-are-bae; but dem jooos, gotta teach'em a lesson, amirite /s)

I wonder who here would support that

Gurey25: do you support what purportedly happened to Banu Qurayda
Shirib: do you support what purportedly happened to Banu Qurayda
Fah1223: do you support what purportedly happened to Banu Qurayda
Cherine: do you support what purportedly happened to Banu Qurayda
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Leftist »

But yet again, we go back to A Question of Karma: for the eye of Karma is ever-patient and does not forget. Here is what went down shortly after the Bani Qurayda incident:

- Xuroob-al-ridda, where arab tribes all over Arabian Penunsila engaged in treason and warred against the Muslims government in Madeenah. It goes without saying that they were not enslaved or mass-executed, even though they killed and murdered many sahaba and innocent people. Just like Quraysh, they were forgiven with a kiss on the cheek. Again, hypocritical double-standards. Its ok to enslave Persians, Romans, and Jews.......but not Ay-rabs because they are "special" and have good "nasab"? But it's all good doe, fam, cuz Homey Karma finna unleash some #work

Karma #work ? Umar bin Khattab gets murked, stabbed to death by a disgruntled Persian slave who complained about the high tax he was paying
The Persian slave, Piruz Nahavandi (also known as Abu Lulu), brought a complaint to Umar about the high tax charged from him by his master Mughirah. Umar wrote to Mughirah and inquired about the tax; Mughirah's reply was satisfactory, but Umar held that the tax charged from Abu Lulu was reasonable, owing to his daily income. Umar then is reported to have asked Abu Lulu: "I heard that you make windmills; make one for me as well." In a sullen mood, Piruz said, "Verily I will make such a mill for you, that whole world would remember it
Maybe Umar shoulda-coulda had abolished slavery, mmkay? :idea: Maybe if he did abolish it, then we would not have 14 centuries of the horrors of slavery being justified in the name our faith. But he didn't. And then he got murked by a slave. I'm juss sayin', b.

Karma #work ? Uthman gets murked too; he is besieged by a angry mob, cut off from food and water, and as he suffering from thirst & hunger, gets stabbed to death in front of his wife and children; his wife gets stabbed too.
Finding the gate of Uthman's house strongly guarded by his supporters, the rebels climbed the back wall and sneaked inside, leaving the guards on the gate unaware of what was going on inside. The rebels entered his room and struck blows at his head.[44] Naila, the wife of Uthman, threw herself on his body to protect him, raising her hand to protect him she had her fingers chopped off and was pushed aside, and further blows were struck until he was dead. The supporters of Uthman then counterattacked the assassins and, in turn, killed them. There was further fighting between the rebels and the supporters of Uthman, with casualties on both sides, after which the rebels looted the house.[45]

The rioters wanted to mutilate his body and were keen that he be denied burial. When some of the rioters came forward to mutilate the body of Uthman, his two widows, Nailah and Ramlah bint Sheibah, covered him, and raised loud cries which deterred the rioters. The rebels left the house and the supporters of Uthman at gate hearing it, entered, but it was too late
Karma #work? Ali bin bi Talib gets murked by Khawarij Literalist-Purist; the khawarij, just like the less extreme orthodox-mainstream(shaa'fi'i, malik, haneefa, hanbal) both then and now, believed in the blind following of religious dogma & holy texts; the plague of traditionalism and literalism which continues to this very day(but which will soon be corrected by the Sweeping Reformation)
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Leftist »

But Homey Karma just getting started doe:

- Civil war breaks out, War of the 4 Would-be Kings & One would-be Queen erupts between Ali, Zubair, Tal'ha, Muaawiya & Aisha resulting in massive destruction and desolation all over the arabia, syria, & iraq. Casualties in the tens of thousands( an extremely large number, given the small population back then) That Banu Qurayda "victory" not looking too good now, is it? When Karma bites, it takes more than it's fair share.

- Yet another civil war after Mua'wiya death, the War of the Six-Would-be Kings

Would-be King Yazid I
Would-be King Ibn Zubair
Would-be King Xusayn bin Cali
Would-be King Mukhtar Thaqafi
Would-be King Dhaxaak bin Qays
Would-be King CabdiMalik bin Marwan

More death, more destruction all Muslim-on-Muslim, all Ay-rab-on-Ay-rab. Casualties again, in the high tens of thousands.

That whole Banu Qurayda "justice" not looking too smart now, is it?
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by jalaaludin5 »

When karma comes back to punch you in the face, I wanna be there...just in case it needs help.
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by TheblueNwhite »

Youtube your sermon so I can skip it to the last 2 seconds.
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by X.Playa »

Great reading I must admit and things to ponder , I never considered the karma effect and even existence.
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Raganimo »

This guy's posts are all over the place and very incoherent.

Let me destroy his little essay with three very simple questions:

1) How do we know that the Islamization of parts of Europe was not "karma" for some atrocity that was committed by the Europeans?

2) Using the logic of this neef, could it not be argued that terrorism, the refugee crisis etc are "karma" for colonialism?

3) how do we know that what happened to Banu Qurayza was not karma for some historical atrocity that was committed by them?
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Re: A Question of Karma: Are the sins of Fathers paid by their Sons?

Post by Raganimo »

Here's a Jewish perspective on this issue:

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate ... ms-do-jews
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